General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
RE: Credo - Final.
Posted by:
John Griffiths
()
Date: April 27, 2001 08:11PM
<HTML>Yuri,
I am somewhat amazed that you have decided to end this thread the way you have – though, I daresay, many of the forum readers will not be! I digress.
What does concern me is that you retain your suspicion of the historical factors discussed in our various threads. In none of them have you admitted or accepted that Russia had a part to play. If anything, you have toed a fairly political line. An example:
>> I figure, that now Russian are more informed than the people which live in West. Unfortunately thinking of the people in West has appeared more conservative. Many prolong to live with old illusions which have remained from times of cool war. The people can\'t or do not want on another view on a history even if their view contradicts logic and historical facts. <<
I would cite here the Kursk submarine tragedy. Facts concerning the conjecture for this – from a Western perspective – are available via a wide variety of sources, including the esteemed Janes Information site – a source of regular military news from both East and West. This openness can only point to a fair freedom of information. Yet the Russian Navy have not made public the reasons for the tragedy preferring still to state it was due to a collison by a ‘foreign’ submarine. If this mythical submarine was indeed a Western type, then information would now be available. In the West, the press never sleeps; such a story would be worth publishing.
>> 2. discussions for the proof of a regularity of the personal point of view. I appreciate the time and I do not suffer the complex of inferiority which forces me always to prove regularity of my point of view. <<
None of the discussions were aimed at you personally – even if I did state that Stalin was a con man!
>>In Russia my messages cause criticism. One people charge me that I communist. Other people state, that I have betraid to homeland Russia and the Americans pay money to me for my messages. The Russian nazis many times threatened to me with physical violence that I criticize philosophy nazi and I state, that the practice of nazi is criminal. I am glad of similar response. It means, that much from this that I write does not leave the people indifferent. <<
I salute your point of view and your courage to put up with the suspicions of those who disbelieve your rationale.
>>Is this 21 centery or times of nazi Germany. The policy of West seems to me hypocritical when it covers eyes on nazi in Baltic countrys and attack the President of Byelorussia or tries to find sins which Russia ostensibly has made. <<
I disagree! There has been much publicity of events in Germany concerning the revived Nazi movement and their cowardly attack on Turkish immigrant workers. In the UK, there is an on-going campaign against those who oppose immigrants to the country..We do not ignore these events!
>>Concretely about Liberty. I specially was not engaged in these vessels and I can not concretely to you explain vague problems. I can state only common and known reasons. The vessels delivered in frameworks of land-lease could remain with that part which them has received. The country putting vessels had the right to demand get back them. USSR has returned to USA some vessels which were set in Russia in time WW2. If the vessel was not reset, her cost will be paid. All financial quastions bound with payments ñîãðà ñîâà Ãû between Russia and USA. Russia will produce payments by parts and should complete them to 2030.<<
Of the Liberty ships, it is well documented that the USSR never returned or paid for these vessels! As to the issue of the finance, I freely admit what I have read states that the USSR did not pay the loan back in full. If this charge is now being paid, well….I admit my mistake freely. I find it hard to believe Russia can afford any repayments given its financial mess currently.
>> It seems very interesting, that the Americans do not state the claims concerning Liberty and other shallow problems. The similar problems try to find representatives of the shallow european peoples. Probably to spoil the ratioes between two great countries. This is ridiculous and is symptomatic. <<
I believe the US exhausted every diplomatic channel available to them! They did not use European mediators in their negotiations. After that period known as the Cold War, the US had probably realised it could not recover its debts and so wrote them off. Given the economic state of Russia today, to request repayment would be tantamount to destablising the Russian economy – something the US ( for all of the suspicion levelled at it ) would not wish to do. Vladimir Putin is doing that well enough, as did Mikhail Gorbachev before him when he dismantled the old Russia and brought in Western practises!
Finally, if you believe – as I think you do – that our conversations and discussions were meant as fun, then I can only say I am amazed. The point was to add to the knowledge we share on the forum and to expand the thread of the base line ( U-boats and the war at sea). It was never meant to denigrate nor cause ‘suspicion’ nor was it frivolous.
So ends yet another thread! I am sure we will both meet again on another, and that the debate we will explore will be - as these have been - good examples of the differences that obviously exist between East and West. Debates such as these can only increase our understandings of our seperate points of view - without suspicion..
Good luck, Yuri!
Aye,
John
</HTML>
I am somewhat amazed that you have decided to end this thread the way you have – though, I daresay, many of the forum readers will not be! I digress.
What does concern me is that you retain your suspicion of the historical factors discussed in our various threads. In none of them have you admitted or accepted that Russia had a part to play. If anything, you have toed a fairly political line. An example:
>> I figure, that now Russian are more informed than the people which live in West. Unfortunately thinking of the people in West has appeared more conservative. Many prolong to live with old illusions which have remained from times of cool war. The people can\'t or do not want on another view on a history even if their view contradicts logic and historical facts. <<
I would cite here the Kursk submarine tragedy. Facts concerning the conjecture for this – from a Western perspective – are available via a wide variety of sources, including the esteemed Janes Information site – a source of regular military news from both East and West. This openness can only point to a fair freedom of information. Yet the Russian Navy have not made public the reasons for the tragedy preferring still to state it was due to a collison by a ‘foreign’ submarine. If this mythical submarine was indeed a Western type, then information would now be available. In the West, the press never sleeps; such a story would be worth publishing.
>> 2. discussions for the proof of a regularity of the personal point of view. I appreciate the time and I do not suffer the complex of inferiority which forces me always to prove regularity of my point of view. <<
None of the discussions were aimed at you personally – even if I did state that Stalin was a con man!
>>In Russia my messages cause criticism. One people charge me that I communist. Other people state, that I have betraid to homeland Russia and the Americans pay money to me for my messages. The Russian nazis many times threatened to me with physical violence that I criticize philosophy nazi and I state, that the practice of nazi is criminal. I am glad of similar response. It means, that much from this that I write does not leave the people indifferent. <<
I salute your point of view and your courage to put up with the suspicions of those who disbelieve your rationale.
>>Is this 21 centery or times of nazi Germany. The policy of West seems to me hypocritical when it covers eyes on nazi in Baltic countrys and attack the President of Byelorussia or tries to find sins which Russia ostensibly has made. <<
I disagree! There has been much publicity of events in Germany concerning the revived Nazi movement and their cowardly attack on Turkish immigrant workers. In the UK, there is an on-going campaign against those who oppose immigrants to the country..We do not ignore these events!
>>Concretely about Liberty. I specially was not engaged in these vessels and I can not concretely to you explain vague problems. I can state only common and known reasons. The vessels delivered in frameworks of land-lease could remain with that part which them has received. The country putting vessels had the right to demand get back them. USSR has returned to USA some vessels which were set in Russia in time WW2. If the vessel was not reset, her cost will be paid. All financial quastions bound with payments ñîãðà ñîâà Ãû between Russia and USA. Russia will produce payments by parts and should complete them to 2030.<<
Of the Liberty ships, it is well documented that the USSR never returned or paid for these vessels! As to the issue of the finance, I freely admit what I have read states that the USSR did not pay the loan back in full. If this charge is now being paid, well….I admit my mistake freely. I find it hard to believe Russia can afford any repayments given its financial mess currently.
>> It seems very interesting, that the Americans do not state the claims concerning Liberty and other shallow problems. The similar problems try to find representatives of the shallow european peoples. Probably to spoil the ratioes between two great countries. This is ridiculous and is symptomatic. <<
I believe the US exhausted every diplomatic channel available to them! They did not use European mediators in their negotiations. After that period known as the Cold War, the US had probably realised it could not recover its debts and so wrote them off. Given the economic state of Russia today, to request repayment would be tantamount to destablising the Russian economy – something the US ( for all of the suspicion levelled at it ) would not wish to do. Vladimir Putin is doing that well enough, as did Mikhail Gorbachev before him when he dismantled the old Russia and brought in Western practises!
Finally, if you believe – as I think you do – that our conversations and discussions were meant as fun, then I can only say I am amazed. The point was to add to the knowledge we share on the forum and to expand the thread of the base line ( U-boats and the war at sea). It was never meant to denigrate nor cause ‘suspicion’ nor was it frivolous.
So ends yet another thread! I am sure we will both meet again on another, and that the debate we will explore will be - as these have been - good examples of the differences that obviously exist between East and West. Debates such as these can only increase our understandings of our seperate points of view - without suspicion..
Good luck, Yuri!
Aye,
John
</HTML>
