General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
RE: Danish / U-boat Connection
Posted by:
Yuri IL\'IN
()
Date: April 21, 2001 12:18AM
<HTML>Hi Don,
I have data about all not nuclear-powered submarines of all countries of the world for last 100 years. Certainly all Danish submarines are also known for me. Below is resulted a fragment from article Mr. Hans Christian Bjerg, Chief Archivist and Head of the Military Archives in Denmark; Historical Consultant for The Royal Danish Navy and Lecture in Naval History at The Danish Naval Academy in Copenhagen.
Mr. Bjerg has awarded me right to use this article. The text of article from Danish to English was translated by Mr. Kristoffer Mogensen. The specifications of the Danish submarines were reported by Mr. Flemming Hansen to which I am especially grateful.
About resistanse of the Danes to Nazis can learn on a site of my friend Gert Laursen [www.milhist.dk]. There is a material and about Frikorps Danmark in which composition some thousand Danes were lost in region of small Russian town Demjansk. What for they would like to die in Russia remains by a riddle.
Besides about Frikorps Danmark it\'s possible to learn on a site [home13.inet.tele.dk] The author of this site is only the Dane which has not wanted to answer to my message. The reason you without effort will understand having visited this site.
I shall not write any word more. In other case man will charge me in Soviet propagation without any substantiation and will consider features of my person not having about me the sufficient information.
Interest from Foreign Navies
In the years between the wars, replacement construction for the already excellent submarine mat╩riel was attended to. The small Danish submarines, which must be regarded as coastal boats, were considered to be very successful in view of the conditions under which they were to operate. Several foreign navies showed interest in studying the Danish submarine designs. From 1918 a tender, GRONSUND, was acquired, later replaced by HENRIK GERNER in 1927. The tenders made the submarines independent of base facilities and offered them greater operational freedom. The Danish submarines in these years were armed with Danish made torpedoes with a diameter of 450 mm. Already before the second world war, international development led several navies to adopt larger torpedoes, primarily with a diameter of 533 mm.
Regarding development and exercises, the British Navy was followed closely, and several Danish naval officers received training as submarine commanders in England.
The Fleet saw no Action
The Danish Navy did not see action on april, 9, 1940, but it can hardly be doubted that the small, suitable Danish coastal submarines as instruments of naval warfare would have been a strong weapon to pit against an intruding invasion fleet. In 1941 the navy was forced to surrender six torpedoboats to the german occupation force, and it was accordingly feared that the germans would also demand the surrender of the submarines.
On august, 29, 1943, the navy succeeded in scuttling all submarines at Holmen, so that none of these fell intact into german hands. The era, which had begun in the Danish navy in 1909 thus came to an aprupt end.
Presumably, the use of 450 mm torpedoes were the main reason for the germans not to consider repairing any of the Danish submarines. They still laid as wrecks, when the Danish navy returned to the Holmen arsenal in may, 1945.
A new submarine arm had to be built. A few Danish naval officers had had the opportunity to get acquainted with submarine warfare in allied service during the second world war. They brought valuable experience home to the new navy, that was going to be constructed. The submarine had furthermore shown its offensive abilities once more in the in the naval war against Britain, which again had experienced great difficulties in keeping the submarines at bay and secure supplies across the sea.
The Problem of the 450 mm Torpedo
In 1945 hardly anyone in Denmark doubted that the submarine should return to serve the Royal Danish Navy. The problem, however, was that it was no longer possible for the navy to produce 450 mm torpedoes. In the future, it had to rely on torpedoes of the 533 mm diameter. This could only be achieved by using submarines significantly larger than those which had been in use in the Danish navy since 1909. As a consequence, the submarines could no longer operate with any advantage in the Danish straits and inner waters, as these larger types would demand a depth of at least 40 metres for optimal submerged operations.
In 1946 the Danish navy leased three british submarines, SPRINGEREN (ex Dzik, ex P 52), STOREN (ex Vulpine) and S?LEN (ex Morse, ex Vortex), these had a displacement of 644/732 t and were armed with 533 mm torpedoes. They were thus double the size of the H-class, which had been the largest submarines built by Denmark in the years between the wars. The application of the submarines was therefore changed completely. They were now to make up a forward defense against invasion and to operate outside the straits, that is the Skagerrak and the Baltic, more precisely the waters immediately east of Bornholm. Furthermore, the submarines should carry out intelligence missions, primarily in the Baltic. This sea proved itself by its different layers of salt content to be perfect for submarines to move undetected in. There are no means by which submarines can be effectively detected in the Baltic - not even today.
Danish Submarines
7/9-1920 Untill 29/8-1943
Rota
Other Things: Hull Number C 1. Was at Holmen (The Danish Fleet basis in Kopenhagen) on the 29/8-1943. Not jused by the Germans. Sold for Scrap in 1952. Price App. 1,800,000 Kroner.
25/7-1921Untill 29/8-1943
Bellona
Other Things: Hull Number C 2. Was at Holmen (The Danish Fleet basis in Kopenhagen) on the 29/8-1943. Not jused by the Germans. Sold for Scrap in 1952. Price App. 1,800,000 Kroner.
20/1-1922 Untill 29/8-1943
Flora
Other Things: Hull Number C 3. Was at Holmen (The Danish Fleet basis in Kopenhagen) on the 29/8-1943. Not jused by the Germans. Sold for Scrap in 1952. Price App. 1,800,000 Kroner.
D-Class(2 Boats)
Both built at Royal navy Yard in Kopenhagen
4/10-1926 Untill 29/8-1943
Daphne
Other Things: Hull Number D 1. Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1946. Price App. 3,150,000 Kroner
1/9-1927 Untill 29/8-1943
Dryaden
Other Things: Hull Number D 2. Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1946. Price App. 3,150,000 Kroner
H-Class (5 Boats)
All 5 Built at Royal navy Yard in Kopenhagen (The 5 boat deleted at the Beginnig of World War II(1940))
8/10-1938 Untill 29/8-1943
Havmanden
Other Things: Hull number H 1.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
6/5-1939 Untill 29/8-1943
Havfruen
Other Things: Hull number H 2.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
18/7-1939 Untill 29/8-1943
Havkalen
Other Things: Hull number H 3.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
13/10-1942
Havhesten
Other Things: Hull number H 4.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
Fifth boat ordered but Deleted at the german invasion of Denmark on the 9/4-1940.
Regards,
Yuri IL\'IN
Moscow Russia
</HTML>
I have data about all not nuclear-powered submarines of all countries of the world for last 100 years. Certainly all Danish submarines are also known for me. Below is resulted a fragment from article Mr. Hans Christian Bjerg, Chief Archivist and Head of the Military Archives in Denmark; Historical Consultant for The Royal Danish Navy and Lecture in Naval History at The Danish Naval Academy in Copenhagen.
Mr. Bjerg has awarded me right to use this article. The text of article from Danish to English was translated by Mr. Kristoffer Mogensen. The specifications of the Danish submarines were reported by Mr. Flemming Hansen to which I am especially grateful.
About resistanse of the Danes to Nazis can learn on a site of my friend Gert Laursen [www.milhist.dk]. There is a material and about Frikorps Danmark in which composition some thousand Danes were lost in region of small Russian town Demjansk. What for they would like to die in Russia remains by a riddle.
Besides about Frikorps Danmark it\'s possible to learn on a site [home13.inet.tele.dk] The author of this site is only the Dane which has not wanted to answer to my message. The reason you without effort will understand having visited this site.
I shall not write any word more. In other case man will charge me in Soviet propagation without any substantiation and will consider features of my person not having about me the sufficient information.
Interest from Foreign Navies
In the years between the wars, replacement construction for the already excellent submarine mat╩riel was attended to. The small Danish submarines, which must be regarded as coastal boats, were considered to be very successful in view of the conditions under which they were to operate. Several foreign navies showed interest in studying the Danish submarine designs. From 1918 a tender, GRONSUND, was acquired, later replaced by HENRIK GERNER in 1927. The tenders made the submarines independent of base facilities and offered them greater operational freedom. The Danish submarines in these years were armed with Danish made torpedoes with a diameter of 450 mm. Already before the second world war, international development led several navies to adopt larger torpedoes, primarily with a diameter of 533 mm.
Regarding development and exercises, the British Navy was followed closely, and several Danish naval officers received training as submarine commanders in England.
The Fleet saw no Action
The Danish Navy did not see action on april, 9, 1940, but it can hardly be doubted that the small, suitable Danish coastal submarines as instruments of naval warfare would have been a strong weapon to pit against an intruding invasion fleet. In 1941 the navy was forced to surrender six torpedoboats to the german occupation force, and it was accordingly feared that the germans would also demand the surrender of the submarines.
On august, 29, 1943, the navy succeeded in scuttling all submarines at Holmen, so that none of these fell intact into german hands. The era, which had begun in the Danish navy in 1909 thus came to an aprupt end.
Presumably, the use of 450 mm torpedoes were the main reason for the germans not to consider repairing any of the Danish submarines. They still laid as wrecks, when the Danish navy returned to the Holmen arsenal in may, 1945.
A new submarine arm had to be built. A few Danish naval officers had had the opportunity to get acquainted with submarine warfare in allied service during the second world war. They brought valuable experience home to the new navy, that was going to be constructed. The submarine had furthermore shown its offensive abilities once more in the in the naval war against Britain, which again had experienced great difficulties in keeping the submarines at bay and secure supplies across the sea.
The Problem of the 450 mm Torpedo
In 1945 hardly anyone in Denmark doubted that the submarine should return to serve the Royal Danish Navy. The problem, however, was that it was no longer possible for the navy to produce 450 mm torpedoes. In the future, it had to rely on torpedoes of the 533 mm diameter. This could only be achieved by using submarines significantly larger than those which had been in use in the Danish navy since 1909. As a consequence, the submarines could no longer operate with any advantage in the Danish straits and inner waters, as these larger types would demand a depth of at least 40 metres for optimal submerged operations.
In 1946 the Danish navy leased three british submarines, SPRINGEREN (ex Dzik, ex P 52), STOREN (ex Vulpine) and S?LEN (ex Morse, ex Vortex), these had a displacement of 644/732 t and were armed with 533 mm torpedoes. They were thus double the size of the H-class, which had been the largest submarines built by Denmark in the years between the wars. The application of the submarines was therefore changed completely. They were now to make up a forward defense against invasion and to operate outside the straits, that is the Skagerrak and the Baltic, more precisely the waters immediately east of Bornholm. Furthermore, the submarines should carry out intelligence missions, primarily in the Baltic. This sea proved itself by its different layers of salt content to be perfect for submarines to move undetected in. There are no means by which submarines can be effectively detected in the Baltic - not even today.
Danish Submarines
7/9-1920 Untill 29/8-1943
Rota
Other Things: Hull Number C 1. Was at Holmen (The Danish Fleet basis in Kopenhagen) on the 29/8-1943. Not jused by the Germans. Sold for Scrap in 1952. Price App. 1,800,000 Kroner.
25/7-1921Untill 29/8-1943
Bellona
Other Things: Hull Number C 2. Was at Holmen (The Danish Fleet basis in Kopenhagen) on the 29/8-1943. Not jused by the Germans. Sold for Scrap in 1952. Price App. 1,800,000 Kroner.
20/1-1922 Untill 29/8-1943
Flora
Other Things: Hull Number C 3. Was at Holmen (The Danish Fleet basis in Kopenhagen) on the 29/8-1943. Not jused by the Germans. Sold for Scrap in 1952. Price App. 1,800,000 Kroner.
D-Class(2 Boats)
Both built at Royal navy Yard in Kopenhagen
4/10-1926 Untill 29/8-1943
Daphne
Other Things: Hull Number D 1. Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1946. Price App. 3,150,000 Kroner
1/9-1927 Untill 29/8-1943
Dryaden
Other Things: Hull Number D 2. Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1946. Price App. 3,150,000 Kroner
H-Class (5 Boats)
All 5 Built at Royal navy Yard in Kopenhagen (The 5 boat deleted at the Beginnig of World War II(1940))
8/10-1938 Untill 29/8-1943
Havmanden
Other Things: Hull number H 1.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
6/5-1939 Untill 29/8-1943
Havfruen
Other Things: Hull number H 2.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
18/7-1939 Untill 29/8-1943
Havkalen
Other Things: Hull number H 3.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
13/10-1942
Havhesten
Other Things: Hull number H 4.Scuttled on the 29/8-1943 at Holmen, Salvaged by the Germans but not comissioned. Sold to Scrap in 1950. Price App. 2,900,000 Kroner.
Fifth boat ordered but Deleted at the german invasion of Denmark on the 9/4-1940.
Regards,
Yuri IL\'IN
Moscow Russia
</HTML>
| Subject | Written By | Posted |
|---|---|---|
Danish / U-boat Connection
|
Don Presley | 04/20/2001 08:41PM |
|
RE: Danish / U-boat Connection
|
Yuri IL\'IN | 04/21/2001 12:18AM |