General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
RE: killing the enemy - my POV?
Posted by:
John Griffiths
()
Date: June 30, 2001 07:19PM
<HTML>Wow...
That thread certainly started something!
I feel pretty much responsible for this so, if I can I\'ll try and end it. Firstly, the gunning down of unarmed men - be they in lifeboats or hands up feet on solid ground - is abhorrent and wrong. Some casualties can be \'excused\' by trigger happy non-experienced personnel but wholesale massacre as perpetuated by the AUSUS forces on that convoy is bang out of order. That was murder pure and simple. Other examples by other countries exist but I digress.
Back to the thread.
No less than the great Gunther Prien - and he was great in the sense that he was a national hero and carried out a daring raid - has said. \'From then on the war hardened with every day. The British began to arm their merchant ships....we acted accordingly. Any ship in convoy to the bottom\'
Prien recounts in that book how he behaved with many of those he came across at sea. In one case, picking up some members of a crew to tend to their need and in another chastising the \'daring\' captain of a merchant ship who had radioed for help saying he refused to assist him but would, when he came upon a nuetral vessel, pass on their position. Okay, this was early in the war - but it does show how much of a humanitarian Prien was - whilst still being able to carry on with his task. Prien was atypical of 99% of the U-boat commanders in the Kriegsmarine during the war. The Kriegsmarine was not the Luftwaffe nor the Wehrmacht - it was seperate and was viewed with suspicion by the other two. In terms of atrocities, the Kriegsmarine\'s \'score\' was nil compared to that carried out by the Luftwaffe and yes, the SS too. History shows that clearly.
Prien and the majority of the commanders / crews were viewed by the majority of the British naval seamen as wily, skillful and cunning opponents. They were not seen as criminals, despite Churchill\'s famous quip that \'we have submarines, they have U-boats\'!
In terms of massacres, the Japanese were - without a doubt - a cruel and merciless opponent. Historians who wish to see how bad they were need to go back to the Japanese invasion of China to see just how cruel the Japanese were. You study history? Then go back....
Yet the Chinese, though losing many people to the invaders, are never mentioned in the context of war. Do they not matter? Alas, no they do not. Why? Because only we - with our war correspondents, cameras and newspapers - ever fought. The thousands butchered in China by Japan are \'by the by\'. The Chinese aided the US after the Doolittle raid and thousands died for assisting the US....did many of you know that?
I have listened to both sides in the TV series and it is presented with a balance that is admirable. The Allied ex-soldiers say, to a man, that the Japanese knew no pity and expected no mercy. The Japanese they interview on the series say likewise. To surrender is shameful, to die glorious. To kill the enemy is one\'s sacred duty....
Whatever happened - and it did - atrocities are criminal acts. However, you will only be tried if you lose the fight. That is what the issue is about.
Many thanks for the interesting debate but let\'s get back on track!
Aye,
John
</HTML>
That thread certainly started something!
I feel pretty much responsible for this so, if I can I\'ll try and end it. Firstly, the gunning down of unarmed men - be they in lifeboats or hands up feet on solid ground - is abhorrent and wrong. Some casualties can be \'excused\' by trigger happy non-experienced personnel but wholesale massacre as perpetuated by the AUSUS forces on that convoy is bang out of order. That was murder pure and simple. Other examples by other countries exist but I digress.
Back to the thread.
No less than the great Gunther Prien - and he was great in the sense that he was a national hero and carried out a daring raid - has said. \'From then on the war hardened with every day. The British began to arm their merchant ships....we acted accordingly. Any ship in convoy to the bottom\'
Prien recounts in that book how he behaved with many of those he came across at sea. In one case, picking up some members of a crew to tend to their need and in another chastising the \'daring\' captain of a merchant ship who had radioed for help saying he refused to assist him but would, when he came upon a nuetral vessel, pass on their position. Okay, this was early in the war - but it does show how much of a humanitarian Prien was - whilst still being able to carry on with his task. Prien was atypical of 99% of the U-boat commanders in the Kriegsmarine during the war. The Kriegsmarine was not the Luftwaffe nor the Wehrmacht - it was seperate and was viewed with suspicion by the other two. In terms of atrocities, the Kriegsmarine\'s \'score\' was nil compared to that carried out by the Luftwaffe and yes, the SS too. History shows that clearly.
Prien and the majority of the commanders / crews were viewed by the majority of the British naval seamen as wily, skillful and cunning opponents. They were not seen as criminals, despite Churchill\'s famous quip that \'we have submarines, they have U-boats\'!
In terms of massacres, the Japanese were - without a doubt - a cruel and merciless opponent. Historians who wish to see how bad they were need to go back to the Japanese invasion of China to see just how cruel the Japanese were. You study history? Then go back....
Yet the Chinese, though losing many people to the invaders, are never mentioned in the context of war. Do they not matter? Alas, no they do not. Why? Because only we - with our war correspondents, cameras and newspapers - ever fought. The thousands butchered in China by Japan are \'by the by\'. The Chinese aided the US after the Doolittle raid and thousands died for assisting the US....did many of you know that?
I have listened to both sides in the TV series and it is presented with a balance that is admirable. The Allied ex-soldiers say, to a man, that the Japanese knew no pity and expected no mercy. The Japanese they interview on the series say likewise. To surrender is shameful, to die glorious. To kill the enemy is one\'s sacred duty....
Whatever happened - and it did - atrocities are criminal acts. However, you will only be tried if you lose the fight. That is what the issue is about.
Many thanks for the interesting debate but let\'s get back on track!
Aye,
John
</HTML>
