General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
Re: HMS URGE
Posted by:
Platon Alexiades
()
Date: June 09, 2015 05:22PM
Dear Francesco,
I do not doubt your statement about the convoy off Ras Hilal on 29/4 and I am in complete accord with you on this point.
However regarding to the "attack" at Ras Hilal, it seems that the Germans were informed by the Italians that their F-lighters had been attacked but upon checking could not find any confirmation. After that each ally believed that the other had been victim of a submarine attack and none could confirm it! No further action was taken. If the convoy was indeed attacked than why is the Kriegstagebuch of their flotilla silent about it? An oversight or they did not bother to report it? Where is the signal of SAN GIUSTO reporting this attack? All this seems to be based on deductions taken in Rome at the time and they seem to have been wrong.
I just state that HMS URGE could not have been there on 29/4 as there are no mention of this in her orders or in the signals addressed to her.
You can argue that her orders were somewhat changed and that we are unaware of it. The exchanges of signals between Malta and Alexandria makes no mention of that. Any particular reason why they would hide this? If you can find a signal in the British archives indicating the contrary I will only be too glad to come to your point of view.
Can you explain why HMS URGE was picked to attack SAN GIUSTO (according to you) instead of HMS PROTEUS or HMS P 31? After all they were much closer to Ras Hilal. Or perhaps there were special reasons to choose HMS URGE?
I do not dispute that errors can sometime slip in official records as they also sometime affect fighter pilot's judgment! But given the choice between the two I am more ready to believe that an aircraft pilot made an error rather that the Captains of two British submarine Flotillas conspired together to hide a "secret" movement for some obscure reason.
You may believe the opposite and I accept that too but I fear our exchanges are leading us nowhere. I have spent enough time on this discussion and perhaps we could have more fruitful topics to discuss.
With my best wishes,
Platon
I do not doubt your statement about the convoy off Ras Hilal on 29/4 and I am in complete accord with you on this point.
However regarding to the "attack" at Ras Hilal, it seems that the Germans were informed by the Italians that their F-lighters had been attacked but upon checking could not find any confirmation. After that each ally believed that the other had been victim of a submarine attack and none could confirm it! No further action was taken. If the convoy was indeed attacked than why is the Kriegstagebuch of their flotilla silent about it? An oversight or they did not bother to report it? Where is the signal of SAN GIUSTO reporting this attack? All this seems to be based on deductions taken in Rome at the time and they seem to have been wrong.
I just state that HMS URGE could not have been there on 29/4 as there are no mention of this in her orders or in the signals addressed to her.
You can argue that her orders were somewhat changed and that we are unaware of it. The exchanges of signals between Malta and Alexandria makes no mention of that. Any particular reason why they would hide this? If you can find a signal in the British archives indicating the contrary I will only be too glad to come to your point of view.
Can you explain why HMS URGE was picked to attack SAN GIUSTO (according to you) instead of HMS PROTEUS or HMS P 31? After all they were much closer to Ras Hilal. Or perhaps there were special reasons to choose HMS URGE?
I do not dispute that errors can sometime slip in official records as they also sometime affect fighter pilot's judgment! But given the choice between the two I am more ready to believe that an aircraft pilot made an error rather that the Captains of two British submarine Flotillas conspired together to hide a "secret" movement for some obscure reason.
You may believe the opposite and I accept that too but I fear our exchanges are leading us nowhere. I have spent enough time on this discussion and perhaps we could have more fruitful topics to discuss.
With my best wishes,
Platon
