General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
invisible snorkels at the XXI
Posted by:
Kurt
()
Date: December 18, 2000 11:23PM
<HTML>Superkraut:
A very interesting thesis. I enjoyed reading it.
You have a wealth of information, so pardon me of I give a long list of questions, but I would be interested in your thoughts to some of my questions:
You mention that the XXI snorkels would be very hard to pick up on radar. Was this invisibility confirmed in post war allied tests, or are they just wartime German estimates?
Was this invisibility due to just small size or to RAM coatings? I have heard that the German U-boat RAM coatings were not effective, but I would be interested in hearing specifics.
Of course, with elusive and lethal XXI\'s coursing the atlantic, sinking 15 to 20 million tons of shipping a year, a lot more allied resources would have been alloted to ASW. Do you have a feel for how much faster allied development of higher frequency radar (3 centimeter wavelength and under) could have been accomplished in order to detect these smaller snorkels?
I also presume that the allies would have put more effort into churning out more ships, and faster escorts (the XXI\'s top burst underwater speed was higher than many smaller excorts). So ship production would have gone even higher than it did.
Also, how fast could the XXI travel, in actual, rough ocean conditions, while on snorkel? If it was slow, than the efficiency of the XXI would be greatly reduced by the long transit times to and from station - more would be needed to keep a given number on station. If it was travelling very fast, then the wake of the snorkel would give a good visual signature to patrolling airplanes, at least in good weather during the day (though in the North Atlantic there wasn\'t always much of that), and they would also give a significant aural signature.
One aspect of a XXI based U-boat fleet that would be of importance would be on the transport of troops. With normal U-boats, heavily protected convoys could generally get thru relatively unscathed. It was just that in the beginning effective escorts were so scarce that ordinary cago ships could not be protected well. Troop convoys were always heavily protected, and U-boat successes against them were few.
With the XXI\'s great underwater performance this would not be nearly as true. Even heavily escorted troop convoys would suffer significant losses, with heavy loss of life - a politically very difficult situation for the US. This might have halted the US buildup of troops in England till the BOA was more in hand. Just food for thought.
</HTML>
A very interesting thesis. I enjoyed reading it.
You have a wealth of information, so pardon me of I give a long list of questions, but I would be interested in your thoughts to some of my questions:
You mention that the XXI snorkels would be very hard to pick up on radar. Was this invisibility confirmed in post war allied tests, or are they just wartime German estimates?
Was this invisibility due to just small size or to RAM coatings? I have heard that the German U-boat RAM coatings were not effective, but I would be interested in hearing specifics.
Of course, with elusive and lethal XXI\'s coursing the atlantic, sinking 15 to 20 million tons of shipping a year, a lot more allied resources would have been alloted to ASW. Do you have a feel for how much faster allied development of higher frequency radar (3 centimeter wavelength and under) could have been accomplished in order to detect these smaller snorkels?
I also presume that the allies would have put more effort into churning out more ships, and faster escorts (the XXI\'s top burst underwater speed was higher than many smaller excorts). So ship production would have gone even higher than it did.
Also, how fast could the XXI travel, in actual, rough ocean conditions, while on snorkel? If it was slow, than the efficiency of the XXI would be greatly reduced by the long transit times to and from station - more would be needed to keep a given number on station. If it was travelling very fast, then the wake of the snorkel would give a good visual signature to patrolling airplanes, at least in good weather during the day (though in the North Atlantic there wasn\'t always much of that), and they would also give a significant aural signature.
One aspect of a XXI based U-boat fleet that would be of importance would be on the transport of troops. With normal U-boats, heavily protected convoys could generally get thru relatively unscathed. It was just that in the beginning effective escorts were so scarce that ordinary cago ships could not be protected well. Troop convoys were always heavily protected, and U-boat successes against them were few.
With the XXI\'s great underwater performance this would not be nearly as true. Even heavily escorted troop convoys would suffer significant losses, with heavy loss of life - a politically very difficult situation for the US. This might have halted the US buildup of troops in England till the BOA was more in hand. Just food for thought.
</HTML>
| Subject | Written By | Posted |
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type xxi
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RE: type xxi
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David W | 12/18/2000 06:36AM |
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RE: type xxi
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RE: type xxi
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Rainer Bruns | 12/18/2000 01:35PM |
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RE: type xxi
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Nannia | 12/18/2000 02:37PM |
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RE: type xxi
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fallout?
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Tom Iwanski | 12/18/2000 03:39PM |
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RE: type xxi
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RE: type xxi
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RE: type xxi
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RE: garbage?
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RE: garbage?
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RE: gaijin
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XXI and the 300 U-boats
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SuperKraut | 12/18/2000 09:41PM |
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Scary thought
|
J-E | 12/19/2000 01:27PM |
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RE: type xxi
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kurt | 12/18/2000 05:41PM |
|
RE: type xxi
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MCE | 12/18/2000 06:00PM |
|
RE: type xxi
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kurt | 12/18/2000 05:55PM |
|
You have missed the point
|
SuperKraut | 12/18/2000 09:30PM |
|
invisible snorkels at the XXI
|
Kurt | 12/18/2000 11:23PM |
|
XXI capabilities
|
SuperKraut | 12/19/2000 08:27PM |
|
RE: invisible snorkels at the XXI
|
Craig McLean | 12/20/2000 03:19AM |
|
Underwater speed and range
|
SuperKraut | 12/20/2000 09:39AM |
|
Snorkels and The Bismarck Add On
|
Fin Bonset | 12/20/2000 01:07PM |
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Bismarck Fleet Add On
|
Fin Bonset | 12/20/2000 01:09PM |
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RE: Bismarck Fleet Add On
|
Fin Bonset | 12/20/2000 01:10PM |
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RE: type xxi
|
Steve Cooper | 12/19/2000 06:20PM |
|
RE: type xxi
|
Stewart | 12/19/2000 07:29PM |
|
Blair
|
SuperKraut | 12/19/2000 08:49PM |
|
RE: Blair
|
kurt | 12/19/2000 11:40PM |
|
RE: I meant 1950\'s
|
kurt | 12/19/2000 11:48PM |
|
RE: Blair
|
Jim, | 12/20/2000 01:35AM |
|
RE: mystery radar
|
kurt | 12/20/2000 10:10PM |
|
Radar and snorkels
|
SuperKraut | 12/20/2000 09:09AM |
|
Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI
|
Rick Mann | 12/20/2000 05:06PM |
|
RE: Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI
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SuperKraut | 12/21/2000 10:08AM |
|
RE: Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI
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Rick Mann | 12/25/2000 05:01PM |
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RE: Wilhelm Bauer Type XXI
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SuperKraut | 12/28/2000 12:41AM |