Mush and Eck
Posted by: kurt ()
Date: June 07, 2001 04:01AM

<HTML>No one said what Mush did was a fair fight. No one said war is about being fair. It is about winning.

War often means taking advantage of the enemy\'s weakest moments, even if that means not \'playing fair\'.

I pointed out two major differences about Mush vs Eck;

1) The Japanese troops were soldiers, on their way to battle, and continued to offer resistance while in the water. If you want to be treated as a noncombatant, you better act like one. The allied seamen killed by Eck had no military value other than their knowledge that Eck had been there. They were unarmed and offered no resistance from their lifeboats.

I suppose modern folks would have less angst if Mush had let the several thousand enemy troops make it to shore. But they would have died in battle - along with many hundreds, maybe thousands, of US soldiers. Mush would not have been doing his duty if he allowed that to happen.

2) The temper of the Pacific war, as a historical matter, was much harsher - because the IJN and IJA violated virtually every code of war; the allies felt no moral compulsion to observe any in return. (nor did the Japanese troops expect any). What Mush did was, as a historical matter, within the bounds of war in the Pacific. I can assure you that the Japanese troops being killed would not consider Mush\'s act to be \'immoral\' - just bad luck on their part.

Eck\'s act was clearly beyond the bounds of what was \'accepted\' by both sides in the BOA - few U-boat officers would find Eck\'s acts to be normal - they were a unique aberation.

In general, in WWII the killing of uniformed combat troops was considered to be ok regardless of their relative vulnerability at the moment unless they were actually surrendering. No one spared the enemy so that they could be fought again some other day in a \'more cricket fashion\'.

however, Mush\'s act was controversial at the time within the tightknit submariner\'s world. No one directly emulated it.

The closest thing to it was the persistent plinking of small, defenceless (mostly fishing) vessels by US subs - some thought it a blow against enemy food supplies, others simply cold blooded murder. There was considerable debate around the tabletop between commanders, execs and officers of various boats while on shore leave, with various opinions. No less a luminary than Slade Cutter, after the first few such acts, stopped and swore he\'d never attack another small vessel - in direct violation of orders to \'sink everything\' - because he could not stomach the one sided massacre of helpless fishermen.

It makes for an interesting debate, though. Thanks for your thoughts..</HTML>



Subject Written By Posted
crew of U-470 abandoned Dave McQueen 06/05/2001 08:12PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Brian Corijn 06/05/2001 09:03PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Dave McQueen 06/06/2001 07:04AM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Steve Cooper 06/06/2001 12:27PM
RE: USS Juneau Rainer Bruns 06/06/2001 01:03PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned becorijn@zeelandnet.nl 06/06/2001 01:14PM
USS Juneau Michael Lowrey 06/06/2001 02:41PM
RE: USS Juneau Michael Lowrey 06/06/2001 03:22PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Rainer Bruns 06/06/2001 01:11PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Steve 06/06/2001 01:29PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned -Dave John Griffiths 06/06/2001 05:18PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned -Dave Ted Agar 06/06/2001 07:29PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned -Dave Tom Iwanski 06/06/2001 07:59PM
in defense of Mush kurt 06/06/2001 08:55PM
RE: in defense of Mush Steve Cooper 06/07/2001 01:27PM
Mushs first wahoos third kurt 06/07/2001 03:21PM
RE: in defense of Eck Tim 06/08/2001 01:44AM
Eck knew he was killing survivors kurt 06/08/2001 05:05PM
With all due respect John Dave McQueen 06/07/2001 06:44AM
RE: With all due respect John John Griffiths 06/07/2001 04:10PM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Steve 06/06/2001 12:19AM
RE: crew of U-470 abandoned Joe Brennan 06/06/2001 06:00AM
RE: other example Rainer Bruns 06/06/2001 01:06PM
realities of war kurt 06/06/2001 03:41PM
RE: realities of war Walt 06/06/2001 10:08PM
RE: realities of war Steve 06/07/2001 10:02AM
RE: wrong spot, defending Mush Rainer Bruns 06/06/2001 11:31PM
Mush and Eck kurt 06/07/2001 04:01AM
RE: Mush and Eck Rainer Bruns 06/07/2001 11:32AM
RE: Mush and Eck Walt 06/07/2001 12:04PM
RE: Mush and Eck Steve Cooper 06/07/2001 01:21PM
RE: Mush and Eck Walt 06/07/2001 04:59PM
RE: Mush and Eck Tim 06/08/2001 02:06AM
RE: Mush and Eck Rainer Bruns 06/07/2001 03:43PM
RE: Mush and Eck Walt 06/07/2001 04:57PM
different opinions kurt 06/07/2001 03:56PM
RE: different opinions Rich Mickle 06/07/2001 11:03PM
RE: different opinions Siri Lawson 06/08/2001 03:56AM
RE: different opinions Rich Mickle 06/08/2001 08:51AM