General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
spying for Russia - the Lucy spy ring
Posted by:
kurt
()
Date: October 23, 2001 04:02PM
<HTML>This a little off the U-boat thread, but this question has begun to bug me in recent years as I learn more about ultra in connection with the sub war in WWII.
Back in '70's, Marshall Cavendish published a large serialized history of the second world war, call (appropriately enough) 'The Second World War'. Among its approx 3000 pages was a two page article about the Lucy spy ring.
Story is that this was a spy ring run by a German named Rudolf Rossler, living in Berne, Switzerland. He made friends with some German soldiers he served with during WWI, who later became high ranking gernals in the OKW, but were secretly opposed to Hitler. So they fed, via radio signal, details of all the German war plans to Rudolf, who then passed them on to the Russians (who code named him 'Lucy'). The identity of the OKW members remains unknown to this day.
'Lucy' passed on vast quantities of German war plans that were incredibly detailed - a Russian window into German planning like 'ultra', but better - with no delays or blackouts - where STAVKA was hearing of German plans before the German frontline commanders, and often in greater detail. Lucy was the most influential spy ring of WWII, perhaps history.
Or so the story goes.
When I was a wee chap and first read this I was really impressed that such a small, unknown group could so change history.
But as I got older, things began to puzzle me.
>Why have I not read of 'Lucy' anywhere else? With reams of books on Sorge, Canaris, ultra, Purple, and other intelligence and spying derring do of WWII, why only a two page article in one work 30 years ago?
>If the OKW contacts (elite generals all, men of public record) were all Rudolf's wartime buddies from WWI, why could their identites not be tracked down from WWI army records?
It didn't wash the more I though of it.
The Marshall Cavendish history was really quite good, in my opinion, but it suffered in coming out just before Ultra was declassified.
Was 'Lucy' really a fabrication to cover for a massive Russian penetration of Enigma?
I have some working theories:
>The story, as written, is true. 'Lucy' is an unsung hero who helped defeat the Nazi's more than a hundred infantry divisions would have.
[I doubt this now]
>The story is pure, complete fiction. The Russians had no such intelligence on German operations in WWII.
[I doubt this, but no too little of the Eastern Front to be authoritive]
>The story is a fabrication, covering for a:
1) massive Russian penetration of allied ultra via human spies among the Allied ultra cryptologists
2) an unsung separate pentration of enigma by the Russians
3) a secret sharing of ultra by the allies with the Russians
>The story is a partial fabrication. A russian agent (perhaps Rudolf) ran a network of German spies that were not highly placed OKW generals, but lowly German cipher clerks, who passed monthly enigma keys to Rudolf. The Russians combined this with a captured (or clandestingly delivered) enigma machine, and read the German engima traffic throughout the war with nary a cryptologist having to work up a sweat.
[This is my favorite theory, but it is all speculation]
Does anyone know the truth?
Superkraut - you know a lot about these things...what do know?
Yuri: Can you help?
Thanks,
Kurt</HTML>
Back in '70's, Marshall Cavendish published a large serialized history of the second world war, call (appropriately enough) 'The Second World War'. Among its approx 3000 pages was a two page article about the Lucy spy ring.
Story is that this was a spy ring run by a German named Rudolf Rossler, living in Berne, Switzerland. He made friends with some German soldiers he served with during WWI, who later became high ranking gernals in the OKW, but were secretly opposed to Hitler. So they fed, via radio signal, details of all the German war plans to Rudolf, who then passed them on to the Russians (who code named him 'Lucy'). The identity of the OKW members remains unknown to this day.
'Lucy' passed on vast quantities of German war plans that were incredibly detailed - a Russian window into German planning like 'ultra', but better - with no delays or blackouts - where STAVKA was hearing of German plans before the German frontline commanders, and often in greater detail. Lucy was the most influential spy ring of WWII, perhaps history.
Or so the story goes.
When I was a wee chap and first read this I was really impressed that such a small, unknown group could so change history.
But as I got older, things began to puzzle me.
>Why have I not read of 'Lucy' anywhere else? With reams of books on Sorge, Canaris, ultra, Purple, and other intelligence and spying derring do of WWII, why only a two page article in one work 30 years ago?
>If the OKW contacts (elite generals all, men of public record) were all Rudolf's wartime buddies from WWI, why could their identites not be tracked down from WWI army records?
It didn't wash the more I though of it.
The Marshall Cavendish history was really quite good, in my opinion, but it suffered in coming out just before Ultra was declassified.
Was 'Lucy' really a fabrication to cover for a massive Russian penetration of Enigma?
I have some working theories:
>The story, as written, is true. 'Lucy' is an unsung hero who helped defeat the Nazi's more than a hundred infantry divisions would have.
[I doubt this now]
>The story is pure, complete fiction. The Russians had no such intelligence on German operations in WWII.
[I doubt this, but no too little of the Eastern Front to be authoritive]
>The story is a fabrication, covering for a:
1) massive Russian penetration of allied ultra via human spies among the Allied ultra cryptologists
2) an unsung separate pentration of enigma by the Russians
3) a secret sharing of ultra by the allies with the Russians
>The story is a partial fabrication. A russian agent (perhaps Rudolf) ran a network of German spies that were not highly placed OKW generals, but lowly German cipher clerks, who passed monthly enigma keys to Rudolf. The Russians combined this with a captured (or clandestingly delivered) enigma machine, and read the German engima traffic throughout the war with nary a cryptologist having to work up a sweat.
[This is my favorite theory, but it is all speculation]
Does anyone know the truth?
Superkraut - you know a lot about these things...what do know?
Yuri: Can you help?
Thanks,
Kurt</HTML>
spying for Russia - the Lucy spy ring