David J. Schumacher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve
>
> I\'ve copied my e-mails to \"reload\" the forum.
> I hope this helps. I\'ve grouped them by person
> and not conversation thread.
>
> David J. Schumacher - Originator of inital
> question
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------
> From Ken Dunn
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I can\'t tell from the photos you sent if it is a
> German U-boat for sure. To
> be honest, I can\'t even tell if it is a sub,
> although I can\'t think of what
> else it could be either. It seems to be the
> correct shape and proportions.
> I have checked all of my sources and can\'t find a
> U-boat that was lost in
> that area that is still unaccounted for. However,
> If you saw the Nova
> special on U-869 you know that all U-boats were
> not sunk where the official
> records say they were. Some of them lost around
> Haiti were lost in water so
> deep no diver has ever verified that they are
> indeed where they are supposed
> to be. However, as there is so much interest in
> WWII German subs I doubt
> that is what it is.
>
> Do the locals think it is a German sub? If so,
> any info on the approximate
> date she was sunk will be of great help in trying
> to identify her. Also I
> can\'t judge her length from the photo. Most
> German subs were from 220 to
> 250 feet long although there were exceptions.
> American subs were much
> longer. Do you have an approximate length?
>
> I can\'t tell if there is a deck gun or flak guns
> on the sub in the picture
> but it doesn\'t look like it to me. If there are
> no flak (anti-aircraft)
> guns mounted behind the conning tower, then it is
> probably not a WWII era
> German sub. Some German subs didn\'t have deck
> guns but they almost all had
> anti-aircraft guns mounted behind the conning
> tower. These ranged from a
> single barrel 20mm gun to two or more
> multi-barreled guns of up to 37mm.
>
> Also, I think Italian subs also operated in that
> area during the war and I
> know nothing about them or how to research them.
> Have you tried writing to
> the government of Haiti? There might be a Haitian
> government agency that
> could help. If the Haitian military does not know
> there is a foreign sub on
> their territory, they may research it for you.
>
> Another possible source of help would be a local
> SCUBA shop. If they don\'t
> already know about it, it will probably interest
> them enough for them to
> find out about it. It would be a tourist
> attraction for them even in
> shallow water. As I am a diver, I know that
> people will come from all over
> to dive a sub. I have been inside a couple of
> them myself.
>
> If you are thinking about diving it yourself, I
> hope you understand that sub
> diving no matter how shallow the water is
> especially dangerous. The older
> the sub, the more dangerous it is. You wouldn\'t
> think it would be this way
> but almost everything attached to the walls and
> ceilings (including heavy
> equipment) of WWII era subs generally falls down.
> The wood it is attached
> to rots and the steal it is attached to rusts all
> the way through. What
> doesn\'t fall down is just waiting for someone to
> touch it so it can fall on
> top of them. It is also full of cables and pipes
> and any number of other
> things to get tangled up in, not to mention the
> silt that covers up sharp
> objects.
>
> There is also the matter of unexploded ammo,
> torpedoes and torpedo
> detonators. Some subs also carried mines. All of
> them also carried
> scuttling charges which could have been armed.
> You can expect any torpedo
> already loaded in a tube to contain a detonator
> that will probably still
> work. Most of the other torpedoes would not have
> had their detonators
> installed yet. Also note that most German subs
> had a few torpedoes stored
> outside the pressure hull under the wooden deck
> (which should have rotted
> off by now) in containers. The containers will
> probably have rusted through
> by now perhaps leaving torpedoes in the sand next
> to the wreck. They also
> had \"ready\" ammo lockers containing ammo for the
> deck gun outside the
> pressure hull. I have also seen 88mm rounds from
> the ready locker lying in
> the sand next to U-boats.
>
> Some U-boats also carried one or more large glass
> containers packed in straw
> that contained spare battery acid. I don\'t know
> if it would still be
> dangerous but I sure wouldn\'t touch them. Also
> if there are air pockets
> inside I wouldn\'t try to breathe the air. It
> could be toxic.
>
> Unlike other ships, warships remain the property
> of their governments
> forever. Other ships lost at sea can be claimed
> by anybody that finds them
> as long as their owners have not made an attempt
> to salvage them. I am not
> sure what the laws are for this one as it is
> almost on shore in Haiti, but
> if it\'s German you can be sure the German
> government still claims ownership.
> If there are bodies inside, it is a war grave.
> There is a German government
> agency that can be contacted as to what to do with
> the remains if any are
> found. If there are remains inside somewhere
> there are families who need to
> know where their loved ones are.
>
> Judging from the pictures you sent, that is such a
> beautiful spot it\'s hard
> to understand how a WWII era sub could be there
> without everybody knowing
> about it. Even if it is remote unless there is a
> problem with the Haitian
> government I can\'t imagine some dive boat not
> stopping there on a regular
> basis to see the sub. I love diving in the
> Caribbean. One day I would like
> to retire there. I have dived Jamaica and the
> Bahamas and they were some of
> the most beautiful dives I have made. The pace of
> life there is wonderfull.
>
> If someone could row a small boat out there and
> take a picture of the
> conning tower close-up it would be a big help.
> The subs of each country had
> distinctly different conning towers.
>
> Let me know what you think and perhaps we can
> figure out where to go from
> there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ken Dunn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: schumach
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 6:24 PM
> To: Dunn, Kenny
> Subject: Re: Sunken submarine at Jeremie, Haiti
>
>
> Ken
>
> 212f is a standard shot
> 211f is a close up
> 209f is looking back at the building where 212 and
> 211 was taken
>
> Thanks for you future effort.
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: \"Dunn, Kenny\"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 4:22 PM
> Subject: Sunken submarine at Jeremie, Haiti
>
>
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > I would like to have a picture of the sub. I
> have a number of U-boat
> books
> > and might be able to help if it\'s a German sub.
> My dad was Third Engineer
> > on the SS Cardonia when she was sunk by U-126
> just off the coast of Haiti
> > March 7, 1942. Dad survived but has since
> passed away. I have been
> > researching U-126 & other German U-boats
> operating in that area for a
> while.
> > Perhaps I can help - no guarantees though.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Ken Dunn
> >
> >
> Hi Dave,
>
> I would like to have a picture of the sub. I have
> a number of U-boat books
> and might be able to help if it\'s a German sub.
> My dad was Third Engineer
> on the SS Cardonia when she was sunk by U-126 just
> off the coast of Haiti
> March 7, 1942. Dad survived but has since passed
> away. I have been
> researching U-126 & other German U-boats operating
> in that area for a while.
> Perhaps I can help - no guarantees though.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ken Dunn
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> ---
> From Rick Mann
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Is it possible that this is the US Sub Dorado?
> It disapeared from what is thought to have been
> friendly fire and was seen drifting and beached in
> the Carribean. It is a strange story that all of
> you should read. The Navy thinks that the bombs
> from a US Airplane killed all the crew without
> sinking the boat and the boat floated until it
> beached itself somewhere. There were reports about
> aircraft spotting it and it actually was used as a
> landmark by pilots. It would be real interesting
> if it was this boat, but one would think it would
> have been salvaged if it was the Dorado. Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> Please accept my apology as I in know way
> tried to insult you. You should probably learn to
> laugh at yourself sometimes as it does the soul
> good. I do it all the time and I also learned it
> is OK to be wrong. Rick
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> Are the bow planes folded up?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> From Harolds
>
> Maybes its a monsters Daves?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> From Rainer Burns
>
> Hi David J.S.,
> NO, NO. These remarks were not directed to you,
> but rather to
> your namesake David Kirschbaum. Please note the
> little boxes and connecting
> lines to the left of the subject heading. Like
> your line ends in the little
> box next to what I wrote last. And mine ends next
> to what D.K. wrote - not
> what you wrote last. See? Sorry I confused you.
> RB
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> Hello Dave,
> First of all, let me pull a little thorn out of
> your butt - so,
> that you can sit down and relax a bit.
> Participants on this forum are happy,
> nay eager to share their experience, knowledge etc
> about this subject. We are
> also quite quick to gently rib a participant
> making bloopers. This happened to
> you, also happened to me, and is no skin off our
> noses. We are here to
> learn.
> If you are here to espouse some theories devoid of
> a minimum of
> factual requirement and get your nose out of
> joint, when called for it - I
> would suggest for you to re-examine your
> attitude.
> Regarding your repeated
> reference to our alledged insults to you, I like
> to point out the following
> statement by you: \"some of you people are
> undoubtedly the most illmannered
> sons of bitches I\'ve met lately.\" We also make
> it a point on this forum to
> address the person we are posting to by name. You
> do not feel this is
> neccessary.
> So, please do not talk to me about manners until
> you have
> learned the basics of this subject yourself. And,
> if you do not mind, I\'d
> rather not bite where you might want me to.
> Not pleased, RB
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> Hi Dave,
> appreciate having that photo. Will see if we can
> identify the type.
> Click on my name in blue on this posting for email
> address. Rgds, RB
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> From Steve Cooper
>
> I saw an aerial photo of this wreck years ago, it
> is definitely a sub.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> AT LAST! I saw a picture of that sub 15 years ago,
> taken by an OMS Missionary
> and have been trying to learn its story. I think
> my first post on this board
> was about it. Is the boat intact?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> From David Kirschbaum
>
> I received three pictures. One shows the beach
> and slope above the cove where
> the mysterious shape is located.
>
> The other two show a long slim shadow
> underwater, with something breaking water around
> midship. The shape is quite
> close to a sandy beach, and the water doesn\'t
> appear to be very deep. There\'s
> nothing visible to indicate it\'s a submarine;
> only the long slim shape with
> that lump of something amidships.
>
> I suspect a swimmer with fins and snorkle
> could do a full examination of whatever it is;
> it\'s not 25 meters
> offshore.
>
> I\'d post the pictures somewhere, but I\'ve had
> quite enough of
> insults from this forum.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> Rick,
>
> Bite me.
>
> If you have something useful to contribute, do
> so.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> Please send me a scan of that picture. I\'d
> appreciate it very much, and will
> put it up on my Yahoo Album where others can find
> it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> From Antonio Veiga
>
> Hi Dave
>
> I am interested to know what submarine are you
> talking about.
> I
> think this area was frequented by U-Boats in
> WWII.
> We don´t know the type of
> sub, or even whether she is an U-Boat.
> I don´t know if can help you, but
> anyway I´ll try.
> Please, can you e-mail me the picture?
> Best Regards
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> -------------
> From Michael Lowrey
>
> Send me the photo to this address and I will see
> what I can make of it.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Michael Lowrey
>
> Davis,
>
> I don\'t know offhand whicht submarine this is.
> However, there are a
> few things that can eliminated:
>
> 1. There is nothing to suggest that the
> wreck is that of a WWI or WWII German U-boat sunk
> during the wars.
>
> 2.
> Haiti, one of the world\'s poorrest countries,
> doesn\'t operate
> submarines.
>
> So why then would a submarine end up in Haiti? My
> best guess
> would be that it was towed there to be broken up
> and possible got lose and
> land aground where it did. Know of any ship
> scrapping businesses in the area?
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Sent by Phorum 3.1 RC3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>