General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
RE: Poland
Posted by:
John Griffiths
()
Date: April 24, 2001 04:55PM
<HTML>Yuri and all,
I had to really go back to my studies on this one! Let me use some of Yuri’s original tract to answer the issue as seen in the West.
>>In 1919 the solution of the Versailles agreement recognized independence of Poland. This agreement has defined border between Poland and Russia.<<
In actuality, the real reason for this was so as to provide a cordon sanitaire so as to isolate Russia behind a barrier of anti-communist states hostile to it. This was ‘diplomacy’. As Poland had been restored to a state of independence after 120 years, hostility to Russia was guaranteed. Poland was to be everyone\'s whipping boy....
>> Border separated lands on which Poles lived from lands on which traditionally lived Belorussian and Ukrainianû which are the peoples affine to Russian. This border has received a title \"Kerson line\". <<
Actually, the land was Polish in the first place! The Belorussians and Ukrainians were not indigenous to those parts of the map!
>> With öåëáþ realizations of this plan Poland began war against Russia in 1920. During Polish aggression the city Kiev was captured - \"the mother of cities Russian\" which more than 1000 years ago was capital of Russian lands. The Polish aggression managed be to be suspended and to be rejected a Polish troops back.<<
Hmm, not quite true! In 1920, the Red Army was sweeping towards Warsaw! The express intent was for Russia to spread the revolution westwards – this as a response due to Poland rebelling against its 120-year non-existence under Russian rule. Poland, in fact, had demanded its own lands back – In Belorussia, Lithuania and the Ukraine. However, the Polish workers failed to rise although the Red Army was turned back at the gates of Warsaw!
>> The Soviet state in that time had to conduct war at once on many fronts. To store power bolsheviks have concluded the peace treaty with Poland.This agreement marked border passing on 100-200 km more east of a Kerson line. <<
Again, I would refer to the 1919 Cordon sanitaire meant to act as a buffer zone between Poland and Russia – and not vice versa!
The Curson Line was determined by ‘The Big Three’ – Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill – at the Tehran Conference in 1943.
>>The new border has shared Byelorussian and Ukrainian into two parts. One part of these peoples lived in the Soviet Union, and other part in Poland. The Poles oppressed Byelorussian and Ukrainian and the tendencies to integrating the peoples were strong. A situation it is possible compare with that when the German people was shared by border between DDR and BRD.<<
The division of Poland was a part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Four weeks after invading Poland, Germany divided Poland up with the Soviet Union.
>>The secret appendix to the agreement of 1939 between Germany and USSR provided sectioning zones of effect. It \\ñîãëà øåÃèå did not provide occupation and undressed of Poland. After the aggression Germany against Poland was begun and the Polish government has abandoned country, USSR has decided, that it will be logical to enter a troops into eastern part of Poland and âîñòà Ãîâèòü fair border on a Kerson line. If it was not made, the German army would begin aggression against USSR being found on 100-200 kms closer to Moscow and other important centres of Russia. Besides the input of Red Army on this territory defended the Byelorussian and Ukrainian people from a genocide which the nazis conducted. Besides the lump of the Jews aspired to reach territory which the Red Army monitored. They with tears kissed money with the plotting of Lenin. The most part of these people has gone through war. Those Jews which having not time or could not pass to territory monitored by Red Army were practically completely destroyed.<<
I will quote directly from the pact on this point!
The government of the German Reich and the government of the USSR consider it as exclusively their task, after the collapse of the former Polish state, to re-establish peace and order in these territories and to assure to the peoples living there a peaceful life in keeping with their national character. To this end, they have agreed upon the following:
The government of the German Reich and the government of the USSR determine …the territory of the Lithuanian state falls into the sphere of influence of the USSR, while, on the other hand, the province of Lublin and parts of the province of Warsaw fall to the sphere of the influence of Germany…
Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures.’
As for Katyn, German troops found a mass grave in April 1943 near Smolensk in which several thousand bodies were discovered – all Polish Army officers. These bodies were of the men taken prisoner by the Russians in 1939. Stalin demanded an apology for the Poles accusation that it was the work of the Red Army and wanted blame shifted to the Germans.
As a postscipt, there is evidence to suggest that the actual assassins were Russians. Even today, the finger of accusation continues to point towards the Russians.
I am not anti-Soviet, Yuri. I am, however, a keen historian and – as such – interested in all aspects of the War (specifically the War at sea). However, I might add that Soviet propaganda during the Falklands War had the Canberra sunk as well as HMS Invincible…..both of which proved to be wrong.
It would seem that you have your version and we, in the West, have ours.
Aye,
John
</HTML>
I had to really go back to my studies on this one! Let me use some of Yuri’s original tract to answer the issue as seen in the West.
>>In 1919 the solution of the Versailles agreement recognized independence of Poland. This agreement has defined border between Poland and Russia.<<
In actuality, the real reason for this was so as to provide a cordon sanitaire so as to isolate Russia behind a barrier of anti-communist states hostile to it. This was ‘diplomacy’. As Poland had been restored to a state of independence after 120 years, hostility to Russia was guaranteed. Poland was to be everyone\'s whipping boy....
>> Border separated lands on which Poles lived from lands on which traditionally lived Belorussian and Ukrainianû which are the peoples affine to Russian. This border has received a title \"Kerson line\". <<
Actually, the land was Polish in the first place! The Belorussians and Ukrainians were not indigenous to those parts of the map!
>> With öåëáþ realizations of this plan Poland began war against Russia in 1920. During Polish aggression the city Kiev was captured - \"the mother of cities Russian\" which more than 1000 years ago was capital of Russian lands. The Polish aggression managed be to be suspended and to be rejected a Polish troops back.<<
Hmm, not quite true! In 1920, the Red Army was sweeping towards Warsaw! The express intent was for Russia to spread the revolution westwards – this as a response due to Poland rebelling against its 120-year non-existence under Russian rule. Poland, in fact, had demanded its own lands back – In Belorussia, Lithuania and the Ukraine. However, the Polish workers failed to rise although the Red Army was turned back at the gates of Warsaw!
>> The Soviet state in that time had to conduct war at once on many fronts. To store power bolsheviks have concluded the peace treaty with Poland.This agreement marked border passing on 100-200 km more east of a Kerson line. <<
Again, I would refer to the 1919 Cordon sanitaire meant to act as a buffer zone between Poland and Russia – and not vice versa!
The Curson Line was determined by ‘The Big Three’ – Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill – at the Tehran Conference in 1943.
>>The new border has shared Byelorussian and Ukrainian into two parts. One part of these peoples lived in the Soviet Union, and other part in Poland. The Poles oppressed Byelorussian and Ukrainian and the tendencies to integrating the peoples were strong. A situation it is possible compare with that when the German people was shared by border between DDR and BRD.<<
The division of Poland was a part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Four weeks after invading Poland, Germany divided Poland up with the Soviet Union.
>>The secret appendix to the agreement of 1939 between Germany and USSR provided sectioning zones of effect. It \\ñîãëà øåÃèå did not provide occupation and undressed of Poland. After the aggression Germany against Poland was begun and the Polish government has abandoned country, USSR has decided, that it will be logical to enter a troops into eastern part of Poland and âîñòà Ãîâèòü fair border on a Kerson line. If it was not made, the German army would begin aggression against USSR being found on 100-200 kms closer to Moscow and other important centres of Russia. Besides the input of Red Army on this territory defended the Byelorussian and Ukrainian people from a genocide which the nazis conducted. Besides the lump of the Jews aspired to reach territory which the Red Army monitored. They with tears kissed money with the plotting of Lenin. The most part of these people has gone through war. Those Jews which having not time or could not pass to territory monitored by Red Army were practically completely destroyed.<<
I will quote directly from the pact on this point!
The government of the German Reich and the government of the USSR consider it as exclusively their task, after the collapse of the former Polish state, to re-establish peace and order in these territories and to assure to the peoples living there a peaceful life in keeping with their national character. To this end, they have agreed upon the following:
The government of the German Reich and the government of the USSR determine …the territory of the Lithuanian state falls into the sphere of influence of the USSR, while, on the other hand, the province of Lublin and parts of the province of Warsaw fall to the sphere of the influence of Germany…
Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures.’
As for Katyn, German troops found a mass grave in April 1943 near Smolensk in which several thousand bodies were discovered – all Polish Army officers. These bodies were of the men taken prisoner by the Russians in 1939. Stalin demanded an apology for the Poles accusation that it was the work of the Red Army and wanted blame shifted to the Germans.
As a postscipt, there is evidence to suggest that the actual assassins were Russians. Even today, the finger of accusation continues to point towards the Russians.
I am not anti-Soviet, Yuri. I am, however, a keen historian and – as such – interested in all aspects of the War (specifically the War at sea). However, I might add that Soviet propaganda during the Falklands War had the Canberra sunk as well as HMS Invincible…..both of which proved to be wrong.
It would seem that you have your version and we, in the West, have ours.
Aye,
John
</HTML>
