General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
Posted by:
John Griffiths
()
Date: December 06, 2001 09:47PM
<HTML>Terry et al,
I’d like this to stay ‘open forum’ - that way perhaps someone out there can cast extra light and provide a lead?
>> The mysterious man and the S.Boat? This is indeed another mystery to this whole saga because apart from the story spun by the tour guide at Birkenhead I have come up with a blank on this event ever happening?<<
S boats stationed in and around the Kattegat were few and far between! Many surface fleet vessels lay in port either acting as AA defence ships or in accordance with Doenitz’s / Montgomery’s instructions of surrender. A lot of the surface vessels had, by this stage of war anyway, been either sunk, scuttled or otherwise immobilised. It does not seem feasible to me for an ‘S’ boat to be available at such short notice - let alone one in an area heavily populated by allied fighters!
Anyway, a bit of research shows that the only ports available near to Anholt Island were Frederikshaven in the north and Helsingors in the south with Ebeltoft or Grena midway. Of S boat bases I can find no mention although the 9th Sicherungsdivision operated in the Baltic area - but main bases were Lindau, Libar and Gotenhafen - none near Anholt Island. Given RAF and other allied aircraft coverage of that area at that time, is it at all feasible that a surface vessel would have dared venture out?
Some info on the downed pilot and the U-534 surface action taken from 86 Sqn:
>>"G" for George reached their Kattegat patrol area at 1313 hrs and, within 20 minutes had picked up a radar contact at position 5635/1158,at a distance of four and half miles. At an altitude of 1,000 ft, dead ahead, sighted 3, fully-surfaced U-boats in staggered line-astern.
A Liberator of 547 Squadron made two attacks on one but, overshot on both attempts, although the second run may have caused some damage.This aircraft (E/547,Pilot, F.L. G.W.Hill ) was then hit by Flak; which tore off a wing, and crashed into the sea.Only one survivor was observed, and he was picked-up by a boat from nearby Anholt lighthouse.Nicol saw the U-boat which had been attacked while diving, and the centre one was already submerged, but the third (U-534) was still fully surfaced, and was attacked with 6 depth-charges.One of these landed and stuck on; the upper casing! Strong Flak was met, but subdued by the front and rear gunners.
A second run was made and 4 D/C`s were dropped....the resulting explosion caused the U-boat to heel over to starboard, and roll the depth-charge already lodged in the deck, over the casing and into the water; which then detonated; bulging in and splitting the pressure hull in the aft torpedo room, flooding it!. After which, the rear gunner saw the sub sinking,stern-first.
Later, about 40 survivors,dinghies and wreckage were photographed.Nothing further was seen of the
other 2 U-boats.
Nicol then guided the rescue boat to the survivor of the downed Liberator.<<
("Coastal Command at War".)
>>Their is also no mention of the mysterious man in the "U-534 story" from the Warships Trust guide book.<<
Red Herring?
>> However their is an interesting statement from No.86 Squadron's Intelligence Officer that was given to the pilots prior to their takeoff from Tain in Scotland.
It states that their main objective for their flight was Quote: "to intercept U-boats sailing to Argentina and thought to have some Top Nazis on board" Unquote.
The question is how did the RAF know of this apart from intercepting Enigma messages they must have been aware of something happening or about to happen?<<
I am still trying to look up something on that angle - but it seems likely that this may have another link with, perhaps, rumours of high ranking officials escaping from Germany - but the risk involved may have given some of the allied ‘spooks’ reason to believe this was the most likely way escape would happen.
>>And as for the other U-boats that were in company with U-534, my sources lead to 3 possible boats these being U-3017, U-3503 and U3523?<<
Hmm...more info please! Where did these boats end up? What happened to them?
>>As for U-534's preservation I agree with your view of the whole situation. There is a reason why nothing is hardly being done to preserve her, what this is I do not know, but one thing i do know is that when The Trust was approuched on the subject of preservation they would only tell me that certain restrictions have been imposed by Karsten Ree as to what they could do and not do and they would not elaborate any further than that? <<
Having seen her, it seems unliklely that an external renovation to strengthen the weak spots on the hull would be the best way to proceed. Some re-building, replacement parts etc would make the hull appear better than the many huge areas of cancerous rust that is there at present. Cap that with wooden decking replacement and a coat of paint when it was done and externally she would look better than she does now - oh, and some straightening out of the AA 40mm! But would it be feasible? Unfortunately, I'd say no - not in major terms but tidying up, yes.
Internally, that is a major renovation project and would, at best, be a complete re-build ( blank cheque book time! ) and at worst a clean up. However, in terms of what ‘could and could not’ be done I think the real issue is money and political memory / pressure. The fees for viewing the boat will be split between her owner and the Trust, which would recompense him some for the salvage operation.....but I also suspect that the idea of renovating / preserving a German U-boat ( the dreaded enemy; the Nazi scourge; the Hitler memory in toto ) is what is behind it all. It is a bit like paying homage to the whole Nazi warped political ideal in some eyes and, politically, is still sensitive. The Trust are, I believe, doing an excellent caretaking job - but their hands are tied.
However, I for one am absolutely livid that we, as a nation have no living memorial to the Battle of The Atlantic - by living I mean like HMS Belfast is to the convoys and Korea or HMS Plymouth and Onyx are to The Falklands. Ideally, we should have an example of a convoy escort, a merchantman - like a Liberty or a Fort and Park type - and a U-boat.
The U-boat we have in U-534. The escort we have no chance of finding and as for the merchantman, there is bound to be a couple of Liberty ships / Fort and Parks / Empire Private Contracts lying about in reserve somewhere. It is not too late to buy one and re-convert it to to a static display. Put those three in Liverpool - home of the battle - and what do you have? A fitting epitaph to all those, on both sides, who never made it home. An educational display to remind the young of the sacrifices made in their name -
- and a living salute from Britain herself which seems to too easily forget it has always owed its lifeblood to its seafarers, both Royal and Merchant.
Instead, we’d have more chance of getting lottery funding to renovate an olde worlde arty farty house or re-build a farrier’s cottage than we’d have of getting a ship to form a living memorial.
Memories are so bloody short.
Chris Lee, you speak sense! No traitor's words and as for Frank....that's not a bad idea you have there mate!
Over to you, Mr. Andrews....
Aye,
John</HTML>
I’d like this to stay ‘open forum’ - that way perhaps someone out there can cast extra light and provide a lead?
>> The mysterious man and the S.Boat? This is indeed another mystery to this whole saga because apart from the story spun by the tour guide at Birkenhead I have come up with a blank on this event ever happening?<<
S boats stationed in and around the Kattegat were few and far between! Many surface fleet vessels lay in port either acting as AA defence ships or in accordance with Doenitz’s / Montgomery’s instructions of surrender. A lot of the surface vessels had, by this stage of war anyway, been either sunk, scuttled or otherwise immobilised. It does not seem feasible to me for an ‘S’ boat to be available at such short notice - let alone one in an area heavily populated by allied fighters!
Anyway, a bit of research shows that the only ports available near to Anholt Island were Frederikshaven in the north and Helsingors in the south with Ebeltoft or Grena midway. Of S boat bases I can find no mention although the 9th Sicherungsdivision operated in the Baltic area - but main bases were Lindau, Libar and Gotenhafen - none near Anholt Island. Given RAF and other allied aircraft coverage of that area at that time, is it at all feasible that a surface vessel would have dared venture out?
Some info on the downed pilot and the U-534 surface action taken from 86 Sqn:
>>"G" for George reached their Kattegat patrol area at 1313 hrs and, within 20 minutes had picked up a radar contact at position 5635/1158,at a distance of four and half miles. At an altitude of 1,000 ft, dead ahead, sighted 3, fully-surfaced U-boats in staggered line-astern.
A Liberator of 547 Squadron made two attacks on one but, overshot on both attempts, although the second run may have caused some damage.This aircraft (E/547,Pilot, F.L. G.W.Hill ) was then hit by Flak; which tore off a wing, and crashed into the sea.Only one survivor was observed, and he was picked-up by a boat from nearby Anholt lighthouse.Nicol saw the U-boat which had been attacked while diving, and the centre one was already submerged, but the third (U-534) was still fully surfaced, and was attacked with 6 depth-charges.One of these landed and stuck on; the upper casing! Strong Flak was met, but subdued by the front and rear gunners.
A second run was made and 4 D/C`s were dropped....the resulting explosion caused the U-boat to heel over to starboard, and roll the depth-charge already lodged in the deck, over the casing and into the water; which then detonated; bulging in and splitting the pressure hull in the aft torpedo room, flooding it!. After which, the rear gunner saw the sub sinking,stern-first.
Later, about 40 survivors,dinghies and wreckage were photographed.Nothing further was seen of the
other 2 U-boats.
Nicol then guided the rescue boat to the survivor of the downed Liberator.<<
("Coastal Command at War".)
>>Their is also no mention of the mysterious man in the "U-534 story" from the Warships Trust guide book.<<
Red Herring?
>> However their is an interesting statement from No.86 Squadron's Intelligence Officer that was given to the pilots prior to their takeoff from Tain in Scotland.
It states that their main objective for their flight was Quote: "to intercept U-boats sailing to Argentina and thought to have some Top Nazis on board" Unquote.
The question is how did the RAF know of this apart from intercepting Enigma messages they must have been aware of something happening or about to happen?<<
I am still trying to look up something on that angle - but it seems likely that this may have another link with, perhaps, rumours of high ranking officials escaping from Germany - but the risk involved may have given some of the allied ‘spooks’ reason to believe this was the most likely way escape would happen.
>>And as for the other U-boats that were in company with U-534, my sources lead to 3 possible boats these being U-3017, U-3503 and U3523?<<
Hmm...more info please! Where did these boats end up? What happened to them?
>>As for U-534's preservation I agree with your view of the whole situation. There is a reason why nothing is hardly being done to preserve her, what this is I do not know, but one thing i do know is that when The Trust was approuched on the subject of preservation they would only tell me that certain restrictions have been imposed by Karsten Ree as to what they could do and not do and they would not elaborate any further than that? <<
Having seen her, it seems unliklely that an external renovation to strengthen the weak spots on the hull would be the best way to proceed. Some re-building, replacement parts etc would make the hull appear better than the many huge areas of cancerous rust that is there at present. Cap that with wooden decking replacement and a coat of paint when it was done and externally she would look better than she does now - oh, and some straightening out of the AA 40mm! But would it be feasible? Unfortunately, I'd say no - not in major terms but tidying up, yes.
Internally, that is a major renovation project and would, at best, be a complete re-build ( blank cheque book time! ) and at worst a clean up. However, in terms of what ‘could and could not’ be done I think the real issue is money and political memory / pressure. The fees for viewing the boat will be split between her owner and the Trust, which would recompense him some for the salvage operation.....but I also suspect that the idea of renovating / preserving a German U-boat ( the dreaded enemy; the Nazi scourge; the Hitler memory in toto ) is what is behind it all. It is a bit like paying homage to the whole Nazi warped political ideal in some eyes and, politically, is still sensitive. The Trust are, I believe, doing an excellent caretaking job - but their hands are tied.
However, I for one am absolutely livid that we, as a nation have no living memorial to the Battle of The Atlantic - by living I mean like HMS Belfast is to the convoys and Korea or HMS Plymouth and Onyx are to The Falklands. Ideally, we should have an example of a convoy escort, a merchantman - like a Liberty or a Fort and Park type - and a U-boat.
The U-boat we have in U-534. The escort we have no chance of finding and as for the merchantman, there is bound to be a couple of Liberty ships / Fort and Parks / Empire Private Contracts lying about in reserve somewhere. It is not too late to buy one and re-convert it to to a static display. Put those three in Liverpool - home of the battle - and what do you have? A fitting epitaph to all those, on both sides, who never made it home. An educational display to remind the young of the sacrifices made in their name -
- and a living salute from Britain herself which seems to too easily forget it has always owed its lifeblood to its seafarers, both Royal and Merchant.
Instead, we’d have more chance of getting lottery funding to renovate an olde worlde arty farty house or re-build a farrier’s cottage than we’d have of getting a ship to form a living memorial.
Memories are so bloody short.
Chris Lee, you speak sense! No traitor's words and as for Frank....that's not a bad idea you have there mate!
Over to you, Mr. Andrews....
Aye,
John</HTML>
| Subject | Written By | Posted |
|---|---|---|
The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
Terry Andrews | 12/04/2001 09:42PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
Vin | 12/05/2001 12:23AM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
John Griffiths | 12/05/2001 07:37PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
Terry Andrews | 12/05/2001 09:00PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
Gudmundur Helgason | 12/06/2001 10:37AM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
oliver | 12/06/2001 11:29AM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
Frank | 12/06/2001 03:48PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
chris lee | 12/06/2001 09:21PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
John Griffiths | 12/06/2001 09:47PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers om
|
Terry Andrews | 12/07/2001 09:08PM |
|
Re: The "Ghost" of U-534 lingers on!
|
Harry | 12/07/2001 12:02AM |
|
U977 & Argentina
|
Jack | 12/07/2001 11:58AM |
|
Re: U977 & Argentina
|
Frank | 12/07/2001 07:57PM |