General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
Re: HMS URGE
Posted by:
Platon Alexiades
()
Date: June 10, 2015 01:53PM
Dear Francesco,
If we believe your hypothesis that HMS URGE was sent to Ras Hilal to intercept SAN GIUSTO after she was informed through an ULTRA intercept (which cannot be found).
Let us assume that the ULTRA signal was lost or destroyed and that it did exist.
We have then to ask the following questions:
1. At what time was HMS URGE informed?
If we believe your theory then she was informed prior to her departure since she had to proceed on the surface at maximum speed continuously for 48+ hours to reach Ras Hilal in time.
My first objection is that British submarines were instructed to dive during daylight hours (one reason why Axis aircraft did not have much success against them) and were thus much slower as they could only do 2-3 knots submerged.
My second objection is that the signals of the two submarine flotilla captains regarding URGE (Captain S.10's 2240B/26 and Captain S.1's 1121C/27 April do not indicate anything regarding a special interception but confirm the 90 miles per day S. p. A. (Speed of Advance) instead of your theoretical 220 miles per day.
If your "ULTRA" signal came after she had sailed then when? The more the delay the greater the impossibility that she was at Ras Hilal. Assume she was informed a day later (on 28 April) [after her 90 miles per day] that SAN GIUSTO was due at Ras Hilal. If you compute her movements, she would have to make 15 knots for 24 hours to be there, an impossibility for this class.
2. Let us suppose that the two Flotilla Captains "forgot" that they had ordered her to go to Ras Hilal and that URGE had indeed been informed prior to her departure:
At 0800/27 April HMS PROTEUS was in 36°23' N, 17°54' E (log). She was faster than a "U" class submarine and about 100 miles closer to Ras Hilal than URGE.
The log of P.31 has not survived but we have her patrol report. She sailed 24 hours ahead of HMS URGE also following the same course at a speed of advance of 90 miles per day. We can plot her course according to her orders and she would have been at dawn on 27 April in approximately 35°45' N, 16°20' E.
It seems to me that these two submarines were better positioned to intercept SAN GIUSTO at sea or at Ras Hilal. You claim that they were not in a favourable position: just look at the map.
Finally my skepticism toward a claim by a fighter pilot to have attacked a "submarine" is borne by the numerous such claims which proved to be unfounded. Notice that the claim was to have missed the "submarine". No claim was made at the time that the submarine was hit let alone sunk. You are the one claiming that it was sunk.
Just two days later (at 1630/1 May), a CANT seaplane and CA.311 bomber sighted a periscope and a trail of oil 310° - 5 miles from Benghazi and attacked it. The nearest submarine was HMS THORN SW of Ras Tayones or about 20 miles from this position and did not report anything. Perhaps this "submarine" was also HMS URGE?
I do not seem to be able to convince you and I do not think you can convince me so let us leave it at that. Our exchanges have been stimulating but I have much work to do elsewhere and do not wish to repeat myself endlessly.
Best wishes,
Platon
If we believe your hypothesis that HMS URGE was sent to Ras Hilal to intercept SAN GIUSTO after she was informed through an ULTRA intercept (which cannot be found).
Let us assume that the ULTRA signal was lost or destroyed and that it did exist.
We have then to ask the following questions:
1. At what time was HMS URGE informed?
If we believe your theory then she was informed prior to her departure since she had to proceed on the surface at maximum speed continuously for 48+ hours to reach Ras Hilal in time.
My first objection is that British submarines were instructed to dive during daylight hours (one reason why Axis aircraft did not have much success against them) and were thus much slower as they could only do 2-3 knots submerged.
My second objection is that the signals of the two submarine flotilla captains regarding URGE (Captain S.10's 2240B/26 and Captain S.1's 1121C/27 April do not indicate anything regarding a special interception but confirm the 90 miles per day S. p. A. (Speed of Advance) instead of your theoretical 220 miles per day.
If your "ULTRA" signal came after she had sailed then when? The more the delay the greater the impossibility that she was at Ras Hilal. Assume she was informed a day later (on 28 April) [after her 90 miles per day] that SAN GIUSTO was due at Ras Hilal. If you compute her movements, she would have to make 15 knots for 24 hours to be there, an impossibility for this class.
2. Let us suppose that the two Flotilla Captains "forgot" that they had ordered her to go to Ras Hilal and that URGE had indeed been informed prior to her departure:
At 0800/27 April HMS PROTEUS was in 36°23' N, 17°54' E (log). She was faster than a "U" class submarine and about 100 miles closer to Ras Hilal than URGE.
The log of P.31 has not survived but we have her patrol report. She sailed 24 hours ahead of HMS URGE also following the same course at a speed of advance of 90 miles per day. We can plot her course according to her orders and she would have been at dawn on 27 April in approximately 35°45' N, 16°20' E.
It seems to me that these two submarines were better positioned to intercept SAN GIUSTO at sea or at Ras Hilal. You claim that they were not in a favourable position: just look at the map.
Finally my skepticism toward a claim by a fighter pilot to have attacked a "submarine" is borne by the numerous such claims which proved to be unfounded. Notice that the claim was to have missed the "submarine". No claim was made at the time that the submarine was hit let alone sunk. You are the one claiming that it was sunk.
Just two days later (at 1630/1 May), a CANT seaplane and CA.311 bomber sighted a periscope and a trail of oil 310° - 5 miles from Benghazi and attacked it. The nearest submarine was HMS THORN SW of Ras Tayones or about 20 miles from this position and did not report anything. Perhaps this "submarine" was also HMS URGE?
I do not seem to be able to convince you and I do not think you can convince me so let us leave it at that. Our exchanges have been stimulating but I have much work to do elsewhere and do not wish to repeat myself endlessly.
Best wishes,
Platon
