Movies and Films
This is the forum for Movie and Film discussions. Again, our topic is naval warfare in WWII for the most part.
Re: What If...A Better U-571?
Posted by:
cate
()
Date: October 10, 2002 12:38AM
<HTML>Ooer Chris, I love this stuff
You're right, there's very little you could do to U-571, including setting fire to the script, director, and all of the footage that wouldn't improve it.
All of your suggestions would help big time. But personally I'd start further back in the process.
First get a better director (suggestions anyone?) - and no, Petersen probably wouldn't want to do it. He's never going to improve on his masterpiece so why would he just want to rehash old territory?
Then get a competent scriptwriter with some sense of history and the ability to sniff out a story with real dramatic possibilities. Mostow's confessed ambition was to make an 'old style sub movie' (ie one that was predicated on all the steryotypes and bigotries of the 1950's) and throw some money at the look of the thing and special effects. The plot, script and everything else then became a giant McGuffin to carry that. The starting point should have been a burning desire to tell a particular story, not necessarily 'true', it could be fiction, but a good one. I'd have picked one set later in the war personally, if it was going to be primarily for the American audience, or like you the Laconia incident (that is one film crying out to be made)
But lets suppose that whoever actually was interested in telling the enigma capture story. What could they have done with it? British input might have been nice, and historically more accurate, but I could forgive a director for glossing over that in the interest of box office. Spielberg did the same in Saving Private Ryan, and it didn't detract from the film. I like the idea though of the german speaking British engineers using their knowledge of the U-570. I think that has legs maybe.
Next the crew of the American boat. For a start less clean cut all American boys. That scene where one explains to his fellow submariners what happens when the sub goes beyond her depth (I'm sure they wouldn't have known that would they?) they are all such hollywood hunks it beggars belief. All sixpacks and smooth rippling pecs. Compare it to Pilgrim & Frensen (also two very good looking young actors at the time) working out with the weights in the Nasal Hair scene in Das Boot, ratty vests, woolly longjohns and shorts and it just looks ridiculously sanitised. So a bit more sweat, stubble and grit please.
And the officers/ CPO's. Not a bad cast to work with, (and why was an actor of Harvey Keitel's class embarassing himself like that? I can only assume he thought it was going to be a much better movie than it was), but wasted. An officer who had such difficulty drawing lines between ranks and taking hard decisions would have been a liability as a first officer, let alone a commander. If that's going to remain a theme then what's needed I think is some kind of implicit contrast between his problems with taking hard decisions and the German Captains lack of them (though I agree the lifeboat shooting was better omitted altogether on the whole).
The whole approach to the German scenes was crass, and another wasted opportunity. The Captain, when you look at it objectively was doing a rather good, clever and heroic job. Tenaciously refused, even at the cost of his own life, to give up taking the fight to the enemy to the bitter end, took difficult decisions to protect his boat and crew ( you're right of course about letting the survivors tie off, but lets assume for some unfathomable reason that wasn't an option) and outwitted his captors. He didn't have to be presented as just another study in evil fanatical Nazi - the possibilities were endless and complex, and again an actor as good as Thomas Kretschmer could have done justice to a much meatier treatment of his role.
A couple more themes occur to me which handled better could have lent this film a bit more substance -
1 Race - Mostow tried to drag this in by having a token black crew member, and have him interpret a german sailor's stare as a racist affront. Message being that this was the nation who gave us the Holocaust in a search for racial purity. Fair enough, but the USN was hardly an equal opportunities employer in those days, and I refuse to believe he would never have encountered any bigotry amongst his own crewmates. That should have been acknowledged.
2 Conflict of loyalties for Americans of German descent. There must have been some, but the only issue for the Radioman seemed to be fear of his crewmates finding out about his origins. Why not have the arbitrariness of loyalty and war underlined by having him find an effect from a german Crewman with exactly the same name as himself on it, for example. Make him reflect about what he's fighting for and it's human cost a bit.
And that whole inane and protracted nonsense about 'Rabbit' or whatever his name was drowning in the course of duty at the end. He could either reach the damn valve or he couldn't. It wasn't as if he wasn't trying. Something a bit more subtle and realistic to prove the First Officer's new found leadership skills, surely.
The technical adjustments you're right on. The whole sub looked far too spacious, comfortable and pristine, token roaches and leaks not withstanding (by the way was that a roach? It looked more like a beetle at first glance, but I couldn't be bothered to go back and check, so maybe they did get that one right)
If I had $40 million it would be yours. You sound like a chap who could be trusted to do the Laconia story justice. Who would you cast as Hartenstein? (go on, the world's your oyster....) I'd like to see my millions well spent
Cate</HTML>
You're right, there's very little you could do to U-571, including setting fire to the script, director, and all of the footage that wouldn't improve it.
All of your suggestions would help big time. But personally I'd start further back in the process.
First get a better director (suggestions anyone?) - and no, Petersen probably wouldn't want to do it. He's never going to improve on his masterpiece so why would he just want to rehash old territory?
Then get a competent scriptwriter with some sense of history and the ability to sniff out a story with real dramatic possibilities. Mostow's confessed ambition was to make an 'old style sub movie' (ie one that was predicated on all the steryotypes and bigotries of the 1950's) and throw some money at the look of the thing and special effects. The plot, script and everything else then became a giant McGuffin to carry that. The starting point should have been a burning desire to tell a particular story, not necessarily 'true', it could be fiction, but a good one. I'd have picked one set later in the war personally, if it was going to be primarily for the American audience, or like you the Laconia incident (that is one film crying out to be made)
But lets suppose that whoever actually was interested in telling the enigma capture story. What could they have done with it? British input might have been nice, and historically more accurate, but I could forgive a director for glossing over that in the interest of box office. Spielberg did the same in Saving Private Ryan, and it didn't detract from the film. I like the idea though of the german speaking British engineers using their knowledge of the U-570. I think that has legs maybe.
Next the crew of the American boat. For a start less clean cut all American boys. That scene where one explains to his fellow submariners what happens when the sub goes beyond her depth (I'm sure they wouldn't have known that would they?) they are all such hollywood hunks it beggars belief. All sixpacks and smooth rippling pecs. Compare it to Pilgrim & Frensen (also two very good looking young actors at the time) working out with the weights in the Nasal Hair scene in Das Boot, ratty vests, woolly longjohns and shorts and it just looks ridiculously sanitised. So a bit more sweat, stubble and grit please.
And the officers/ CPO's. Not a bad cast to work with, (and why was an actor of Harvey Keitel's class embarassing himself like that? I can only assume he thought it was going to be a much better movie than it was), but wasted. An officer who had such difficulty drawing lines between ranks and taking hard decisions would have been a liability as a first officer, let alone a commander. If that's going to remain a theme then what's needed I think is some kind of implicit contrast between his problems with taking hard decisions and the German Captains lack of them (though I agree the lifeboat shooting was better omitted altogether on the whole).
The whole approach to the German scenes was crass, and another wasted opportunity. The Captain, when you look at it objectively was doing a rather good, clever and heroic job. Tenaciously refused, even at the cost of his own life, to give up taking the fight to the enemy to the bitter end, took difficult decisions to protect his boat and crew ( you're right of course about letting the survivors tie off, but lets assume for some unfathomable reason that wasn't an option) and outwitted his captors. He didn't have to be presented as just another study in evil fanatical Nazi - the possibilities were endless and complex, and again an actor as good as Thomas Kretschmer could have done justice to a much meatier treatment of his role.
A couple more themes occur to me which handled better could have lent this film a bit more substance -
1 Race - Mostow tried to drag this in by having a token black crew member, and have him interpret a german sailor's stare as a racist affront. Message being that this was the nation who gave us the Holocaust in a search for racial purity. Fair enough, but the USN was hardly an equal opportunities employer in those days, and I refuse to believe he would never have encountered any bigotry amongst his own crewmates. That should have been acknowledged.
2 Conflict of loyalties for Americans of German descent. There must have been some, but the only issue for the Radioman seemed to be fear of his crewmates finding out about his origins. Why not have the arbitrariness of loyalty and war underlined by having him find an effect from a german Crewman with exactly the same name as himself on it, for example. Make him reflect about what he's fighting for and it's human cost a bit.
And that whole inane and protracted nonsense about 'Rabbit' or whatever his name was drowning in the course of duty at the end. He could either reach the damn valve or he couldn't. It wasn't as if he wasn't trying. Something a bit more subtle and realistic to prove the First Officer's new found leadership skills, surely.
The technical adjustments you're right on. The whole sub looked far too spacious, comfortable and pristine, token roaches and leaks not withstanding (by the way was that a roach? It looked more like a beetle at first glance, but I couldn't be bothered to go back and check, so maybe they did get that one right)
If I had $40 million it would be yours. You sound like a chap who could be trusted to do the Laconia story justice. Who would you cast as Hartenstein? (go on, the world's your oyster....) I'd like to see my millions well spent
Cate</HTML>
