General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
RE: belgrano - ASW in particular
Posted by:
John Griffiths
()
Date: May 19, 2001 05:58PM
<HTML>Hi james,
An interesting topic! It has long been argued that had the Belgrano made Port Stanley, she\'d have wreaked havoc on the UK SAG inward bound for the islands. Just a thought.
On ASW tacks. The Belgrano\'s SAG was armed with3 AS torpedo tubes and 2 Hedgehog ASW kit - plus an on board helo. ( 3 in fact. 2 on Belgrano and 1 on one of the destroyers.) Belgrano herself, so far as I am aware, relied heavily on her escorts for an ASW screen as she was not so equipped. Which beggars the question: what where they doing not standing up threat? Why didn\'t they fly off an ASW sweep to port, starboard and astern of the Belgrano, with one of the ASW equipped destroyers sweeping ahead? ASW sweeping would have been picked up by Conqueror miles out....so where they sweeping? It seems not - not if she got that close.
If their kit was basic, then even ship launching a fish at a modern sub like Conqueror would have had doubtful consequences. The average fish would have used up a lot of energy going for the sub - which would have deployed her own defences anyway. Likely the Escort Group Commander realised that fish are not much use against fast, deep diving subs. Fish are always better utilised when fired by subs....
Hedgehog would have been a good choice. These charges are small with a lethal kill radius of about 5 metres - but water, due to hydrodynamic pressures, amplifies this to much greater distances. At about thirty metres from a hog splash, nasty things would happen aboard a sub! Nukes are more vulnerable as a result of their large hull openings for cooling water etc. Conventional boats would have fractured pipes, shattered lights and that - all the Das Boot stuff! Overall though, unlikely to do much more than light damage which may require a sub to lick her wounds and retire.
Helo\'s are always the best bet in ASW ops. For one, they can outrun their target! I don\'t know if the Argie helo\'s were ASW equipped. Around \'82, the fit with most ex-US kit was usually the American AN/AQS system - but I\'d say that the Argies would not have been that advanced and would probably have something similar like the AN/AQS-12 A or B, if not older. These are dunking sonars but have their limitations. I seem to recall being told - someone correct me if I am wrong - that a dunker 80m under surface is useless at detecting a sub at a depth of 1000m - less if there is a temperature inversion layer aiding it and acting as a sort of acoustic reflector.You can guarentee Conqueror would have used those layers to best effect.
Which makes me wonder if, indeed, the ARA had the capability and / or the kit for effective ASW ops?
I know that they also did not have towed array kit - so what I am saying is that it was, for all the nationalistic bluster, a pretty crap set of kit to send to sea knowing the UK had nukes capable of running silent and deep.
As for the question would the Argie destoyers have attacked if they\'d have pinged Conqueror - undoubtedly, yes. They would have. As it was, Conqueror was not even detected.
That, above all else, must rank as one of the greatest blunders of the whole action. It certainly goes a long way to displaying the sad fact that the Argentinian kit was nowhere near battle capable nor committed.
That, again, goes a long way to showing the quality of their Navy. Jeez, we pinged the whole way UK-Falklands!
Aye,
John
</HTML>
An interesting topic! It has long been argued that had the Belgrano made Port Stanley, she\'d have wreaked havoc on the UK SAG inward bound for the islands. Just a thought.
On ASW tacks. The Belgrano\'s SAG was armed with3 AS torpedo tubes and 2 Hedgehog ASW kit - plus an on board helo. ( 3 in fact. 2 on Belgrano and 1 on one of the destroyers.) Belgrano herself, so far as I am aware, relied heavily on her escorts for an ASW screen as she was not so equipped. Which beggars the question: what where they doing not standing up threat? Why didn\'t they fly off an ASW sweep to port, starboard and astern of the Belgrano, with one of the ASW equipped destroyers sweeping ahead? ASW sweeping would have been picked up by Conqueror miles out....so where they sweeping? It seems not - not if she got that close.
If their kit was basic, then even ship launching a fish at a modern sub like Conqueror would have had doubtful consequences. The average fish would have used up a lot of energy going for the sub - which would have deployed her own defences anyway. Likely the Escort Group Commander realised that fish are not much use against fast, deep diving subs. Fish are always better utilised when fired by subs....
Hedgehog would have been a good choice. These charges are small with a lethal kill radius of about 5 metres - but water, due to hydrodynamic pressures, amplifies this to much greater distances. At about thirty metres from a hog splash, nasty things would happen aboard a sub! Nukes are more vulnerable as a result of their large hull openings for cooling water etc. Conventional boats would have fractured pipes, shattered lights and that - all the Das Boot stuff! Overall though, unlikely to do much more than light damage which may require a sub to lick her wounds and retire.
Helo\'s are always the best bet in ASW ops. For one, they can outrun their target! I don\'t know if the Argie helo\'s were ASW equipped. Around \'82, the fit with most ex-US kit was usually the American AN/AQS system - but I\'d say that the Argies would not have been that advanced and would probably have something similar like the AN/AQS-12 A or B, if not older. These are dunking sonars but have their limitations. I seem to recall being told - someone correct me if I am wrong - that a dunker 80m under surface is useless at detecting a sub at a depth of 1000m - less if there is a temperature inversion layer aiding it and acting as a sort of acoustic reflector.You can guarentee Conqueror would have used those layers to best effect.
Which makes me wonder if, indeed, the ARA had the capability and / or the kit for effective ASW ops?
I know that they also did not have towed array kit - so what I am saying is that it was, for all the nationalistic bluster, a pretty crap set of kit to send to sea knowing the UK had nukes capable of running silent and deep.
As for the question would the Argie destoyers have attacked if they\'d have pinged Conqueror - undoubtedly, yes. They would have. As it was, Conqueror was not even detected.
That, above all else, must rank as one of the greatest blunders of the whole action. It certainly goes a long way to displaying the sad fact that the Argentinian kit was nowhere near battle capable nor committed.
That, again, goes a long way to showing the quality of their Navy. Jeez, we pinged the whole way UK-Falklands!
Aye,
John
</HTML>
