General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
RE: A whale or Alpha - Some info
Posted by:
John Griffiths
()
Date: May 23, 2001 07:55PM
<HTML> Hi,
>>if the sub was Alpha class, nothing short of a nuclear device would be effective, 45 knots and/or 3 000m depth is sufficient to defeat any conventional weapon (probably), or wait until the the titanium welds fail,<<
The Soviet Alfa / Oscar / Typhoon class attack subs remain the number one target in any ASW commanders eyes! However, they are not immune! Like some of the later U-boats, they have vent holes in the free-flood hull - and that generates a lot of noise when she\'s moving at speed. Ergo sum, they are likley to be picked up on screen - and kept \'painted up\'.
My experience is 80\'s time frame so I\'ll go with that one. The Mk48 torpedoes - sub fired - had a high probability of a succesful kill against an Alfa ( titanium hull or not!). Helo dropped nuke depth charges would also put one of them deep six.
The Mk48 had a top whack of around 55k and a useable range of 15 - 18 miles - 10 if wire guided. It made a laughing stock of ship borne systems then in operation. It also has a depth working range of around 1000m - equal to the operating depth of an Alfa. ADCAP - which was not in operation then ( with the RN anyway ) - further improved this sytem and extended its uselful lethat range and capability, however that was after my time.
The Mk48 is a long range hunter-killer weapon, focusing on underwater targets with both homing sonar and what was referred to as \'attack logic\'. The guarenteed kill of a weapon such as this was always referred to as \'5:1\' - however, two ASW escorts flying off a pair of ASW helo\'s almost guarenteed a kill.
With effective ASW cover provided by aircraft and helo\'s. The object of a focused ASW group - provided by ASW ships and \'top cover\' is to force any sub commander to break surface - either by popping up, by upping his periscope or ariels - through the \'layer\' and thus create noise which would be picked up by one of the dedicated ASW units. That could be detection by dunking sonar, by towed array or by some eagle eyed fly boy sitting pretty above!
Whatever, the \'invincibility\' of these subs has now largely been superceded by more modern units - including the ex RN subs sold to Canada which remain - to date - the quietest boats in the world! Ask any US ASW op about how quiet they are - respect!
I didn\'t say we had any sense in selling them...!
A lot of propoganda is afforded to the Soviet sub fleet - mainly because it ensures over seas sales to (mostly) Third World countries who want big flash boats for little outlay.The down side of this is that India, for example, has a great interest in Soviet sub technology - which means that any secrets and weaknesses they have are passed over to the West -
- which means, of course, that we get better and better at looking at lethal solutions to the \'invincible\' Soviet sub threats.
As a last aside, look carefully at the Kursk and how the Soviet navy is shaping up nowadays. Their sub fleet has had more accidents than any other.
Aye,
John</HTML>
>>if the sub was Alpha class, nothing short of a nuclear device would be effective, 45 knots and/or 3 000m depth is sufficient to defeat any conventional weapon (probably), or wait until the the titanium welds fail,<<
The Soviet Alfa / Oscar / Typhoon class attack subs remain the number one target in any ASW commanders eyes! However, they are not immune! Like some of the later U-boats, they have vent holes in the free-flood hull - and that generates a lot of noise when she\'s moving at speed. Ergo sum, they are likley to be picked up on screen - and kept \'painted up\'.
My experience is 80\'s time frame so I\'ll go with that one. The Mk48 torpedoes - sub fired - had a high probability of a succesful kill against an Alfa ( titanium hull or not!). Helo dropped nuke depth charges would also put one of them deep six.
The Mk48 had a top whack of around 55k and a useable range of 15 - 18 miles - 10 if wire guided. It made a laughing stock of ship borne systems then in operation. It also has a depth working range of around 1000m - equal to the operating depth of an Alfa. ADCAP - which was not in operation then ( with the RN anyway ) - further improved this sytem and extended its uselful lethat range and capability, however that was after my time.
The Mk48 is a long range hunter-killer weapon, focusing on underwater targets with both homing sonar and what was referred to as \'attack logic\'. The guarenteed kill of a weapon such as this was always referred to as \'5:1\' - however, two ASW escorts flying off a pair of ASW helo\'s almost guarenteed a kill.
With effective ASW cover provided by aircraft and helo\'s. The object of a focused ASW group - provided by ASW ships and \'top cover\' is to force any sub commander to break surface - either by popping up, by upping his periscope or ariels - through the \'layer\' and thus create noise which would be picked up by one of the dedicated ASW units. That could be detection by dunking sonar, by towed array or by some eagle eyed fly boy sitting pretty above!
Whatever, the \'invincibility\' of these subs has now largely been superceded by more modern units - including the ex RN subs sold to Canada which remain - to date - the quietest boats in the world! Ask any US ASW op about how quiet they are - respect!
I didn\'t say we had any sense in selling them...!
A lot of propoganda is afforded to the Soviet sub fleet - mainly because it ensures over seas sales to (mostly) Third World countries who want big flash boats for little outlay.The down side of this is that India, for example, has a great interest in Soviet sub technology - which means that any secrets and weaknesses they have are passed over to the West -
- which means, of course, that we get better and better at looking at lethal solutions to the \'invincible\' Soviet sub threats.
As a last aside, look carefully at the Kursk and how the Soviet navy is shaping up nowadays. Their sub fleet has had more accidents than any other.
Aye,
John</HTML>
