General Discussions
This is the place to discuss general issues related to the U-boat war or the war at sea in WWII.
Plan Z and Ramifications
Posted by:
adrian
()
Date: July 18, 2001 09:47AM
<HTML>G\'day once again!,
I seem to have tangled with a very accomplished debator and can say with all honesty that I will never pick an arguement with you! I agree with most points you brought up and I must confess to wanting to expand on some of the points that I raised but didnt have the time when writing this morning. There is no real need as I think you have covered it quite well and have left me no real arguements. If I may say that we are both in agreeance that the entire German war effort was a mish mash of economic and manufacturing disaster area\'s! It seems that the coddling of German populace for fear of the repeats of 1918 may have had its own disastorous ending - or more correctly did. Interesting that a totally undemocratic government pandered to an electorate that didnt have a hope in voting him out !
I will however disagree with some aspects. I dont believe ( and certainly not from what I\'ve read or had researched) that he wanted war with Czechoslovakia in March \'39. I think it was more of a test case of what he could do before the Britsh reacted in some manner. I think that Hitler\'s luck more than increased purely from the presence of Chamberlain at Downing street. It may have been different had anyone else but Neville Chamberlain (and I mean anybody not Churchill in particular) been in office. By the same token it must be accepted that only Chamberlain new what a desperately bad military position Britain was in. Needless to say my thoughts there is purely hypothetical.Encouraged by the results Poland was next on the agenda and from contemporary reports I\'ve encountered he was surprised when Britain did carry out her threat of war. Now I do agree with you that France had no stomach for the fight and I\'m pretty sure that Germany and Hitler knew this. Mind you meticulous planning does not necessarily mean that it wasnt a gamble - at the end of day the Wehrmacht was outnumbered in tanks,artillery,aircraft and infantry by the Allies. The gamble lay in dispensing with the traditional approach and using armour,airpower and and veering away from the broadfront assaults of the First World war. The result is well known and there is no need for me to expand,I believe.
Now I can get to where I had planned to cover. Plan Z and its ramifications. Yeah, I think the Admiralty would fair be sh#tting themselves. The plans called for no less than 11 Panzerschiffe, 2 Improved Bismarck Class BB, 2 super Bismarck (mounting 18 in guns!)BB and 4 Aircraft carriers. Not too mention numerous Cruiser\'s and destroyers. Now (and this is purely speculation) I dont think that considering other events that it would of ever happened. Just the amount of steel required would of put industry under extreme pressure to come up with the goods and we both know the disorganized nature of German industry. Not too mention other elements wanting vast amounts of steel for themselves.You cant serve all people and keep all of them happy, something had to give and it was the Kriegsmarine. So Containment was born. And quite sucessful for some time. But when overwhelming technological and economic might is deployed towards defeating the UBoats then you could safely say that Doenitz\'s U Boats were doomed. Now that it is sure to get the censors going!
I will leave it at that and look forward to the reply.
Very best regards,
Adrian</HTML>
I seem to have tangled with a very accomplished debator and can say with all honesty that I will never pick an arguement with you! I agree with most points you brought up and I must confess to wanting to expand on some of the points that I raised but didnt have the time when writing this morning. There is no real need as I think you have covered it quite well and have left me no real arguements. If I may say that we are both in agreeance that the entire German war effort was a mish mash of economic and manufacturing disaster area\'s! It seems that the coddling of German populace for fear of the repeats of 1918 may have had its own disastorous ending - or more correctly did. Interesting that a totally undemocratic government pandered to an electorate that didnt have a hope in voting him out !
I will however disagree with some aspects. I dont believe ( and certainly not from what I\'ve read or had researched) that he wanted war with Czechoslovakia in March \'39. I think it was more of a test case of what he could do before the Britsh reacted in some manner. I think that Hitler\'s luck more than increased purely from the presence of Chamberlain at Downing street. It may have been different had anyone else but Neville Chamberlain (and I mean anybody not Churchill in particular) been in office. By the same token it must be accepted that only Chamberlain new what a desperately bad military position Britain was in. Needless to say my thoughts there is purely hypothetical.Encouraged by the results Poland was next on the agenda and from contemporary reports I\'ve encountered he was surprised when Britain did carry out her threat of war. Now I do agree with you that France had no stomach for the fight and I\'m pretty sure that Germany and Hitler knew this. Mind you meticulous planning does not necessarily mean that it wasnt a gamble - at the end of day the Wehrmacht was outnumbered in tanks,artillery,aircraft and infantry by the Allies. The gamble lay in dispensing with the traditional approach and using armour,airpower and and veering away from the broadfront assaults of the First World war. The result is well known and there is no need for me to expand,I believe.
Now I can get to where I had planned to cover. Plan Z and its ramifications. Yeah, I think the Admiralty would fair be sh#tting themselves. The plans called for no less than 11 Panzerschiffe, 2 Improved Bismarck Class BB, 2 super Bismarck (mounting 18 in guns!)BB and 4 Aircraft carriers. Not too mention numerous Cruiser\'s and destroyers. Now (and this is purely speculation) I dont think that considering other events that it would of ever happened. Just the amount of steel required would of put industry under extreme pressure to come up with the goods and we both know the disorganized nature of German industry. Not too mention other elements wanting vast amounts of steel for themselves.You cant serve all people and keep all of them happy, something had to give and it was the Kriegsmarine. So Containment was born. And quite sucessful for some time. But when overwhelming technological and economic might is deployed towards defeating the UBoats then you could safely say that Doenitz\'s U Boats were doomed. Now that it is sure to get the censors going!
I will leave it at that and look forward to the reply.
Very best regards,
Adrian</HTML>
| Subject | Written By | Posted |
|---|---|---|
To Adrian
|
SuperKraut | 07/17/2001 09:11PM |
|
RE: To Adrian
|
adrian | 07/17/2001 11:46PM |
|
Of gamblers and leaders
|
SuperKraut | 07/18/2001 06:53AM |
|
Plan Z and Ramifications
|
adrian | 07/18/2001 09:46AM |
|
Plan Z and Ramifications
|
adrian | 07/18/2001 09:47AM |
|
RE: Of gamblers and leaders
|
walter M | 07/18/2001 07:55PM |
|
Von Clausewitz
|
SuperKraut | 07/19/2001 03:13PM |
|
RE: Von Clausewitz
|
walter M | 07/19/2001 09:29PM |
|
RE: Von Clausewitz
|
Yuri IL\'IN | 07/24/2001 12:10AM |
|
RE: Von Clausewitz
|
Yuri IL\'IN | 07/24/2001 12:14AM |
|
The bomb, etc.
|
SuperKraut | 07/25/2001 10:55AM |
|
RE: The bomb, etc.
|
Yuri IL\'IN | 07/25/2001 03:57PM |
|
RE: The bomb, etc.
|
Yuri IL\'IN | 08/27/2001 11:15AM |
|
The failure of the will
|
kurt | 07/25/2001 09:44PM |