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Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order
Posted by: geoffreybrooks ()
Date: December 20, 2007 08:56PM

50 years after a conflict concludes, the first traces began to emerge of a different history. That appears to be the ripening situation at the present time.

Whereas millions of documents have been declassified in archives in the northern hemisphere, the situation in Argentina is very different, and everything relating to naval affairs can be found in one box.

Salinas and De Napoli's book "Ultramar Sur" (2002) was a pioneer in the field. The authors provided archive material which highlights a conflict between documents in the public domain in the North, and what little is available in the South. The book was unfortunately too emotional, too long, too unbalanced, too pro-Allied for the obvious to be seen. De Napoli hated Wermuth and Schäffer so much that he even left them out of the Index.

Now let us see what provides the area of conflict. If we take U-530 and U-977 as a case in point, these two submarines are supposed to have made their way to Argentina postwar simply in order to obtain better treatment for their crews, or to avoid biological contamination. The US Navy declassified documents of the interrogations support this, and there the matter ends.

In 2002 the Argentine Navy declassified the interrogations of Otto Wermuth (U-530, arrived 10 July 1945, interviewed 13-15 July 1945), and Heinz Schäffer (U-977, arrived 17 August 1945, interviewed 19-21 August 1945). No historian in the North has ever mentioned these interrogations, yet they are profoundly different from those conducted by the US Navy a month later.

We discover from the interrogation of Schäffer, (and even from the US Navy summary) that there never was a 66-day voyage submerged on the snorkel. This was fiction. Why would such a fiction be written? To conceal where U-977 was at any particular point on the voyage from Norway to Argentine waters.

The official version is that U-977 came down to Argentina very slowly on 80 tonnes of oil. She never refuelled. She was never near the Equator on 4 July 1945 and did not even cross the Equator until 23 July 1945. Slowly forth she rolled, reaching Argentina on 17 August to surrender.

In 1952 Schäffer had published his book "U-977 - 66 Tage unter Wasser". It appeared in various languages and has been accepted by some historians as a primary document. In the first six or seven years after the war it was impossible for a Wehrmacht officer to have an unexpurgated book published about his wartime experiences. Schäffer's unedited book "Das Geheimnis vom U-977" was published in Buenos Aires in German in 1950. This book contains certain items of information which throw light on the true purpose of the U-977 voyage. This information ties in with the Argentine Navy interrogation report. "U-977 - 66 Tage unter Wasser" is the expurgated of the Buenos Aires book, and to get his original book published Schäffer had to take out everything compromising.

In 2006, the copyright holder in Argentina published for general circulation the original book in Spanish. There is little doubt from this book, and other sources which I consulted to support my interpretation, that U-977:

(1) Was the provisions boat for the Patagonian U-boats which came down in a pack after the conclusion of hostilities. The existence of this pack is confirmed in an Argentine archive document.

(2) Schäffer loaded a huge cargo of provisions at Frederikshavn in late April 1945. These provisions were for the Patagonian U-boats. U-977 was a floating delicatessen so heavily overloaded that the LI experienced difficulty in maintaining trim.

(3) On 10 May 1945 off Bergen, Schäffer shipped 12 men ashore. The reason for doing this was not primarily that they had voted to rejoin their families in Germany and Schäffer thought that would be nice, but that all the provisions- "barrels of butter, hams, crates of wine - everything imaginable" - made the boat intolerable. Everybody below Warrant Officer rank lived in the PO's mess. Even with only 32 men aboard a Type VII boat, Schäffer wrote that the boat remained insufferable.

(4) Schäffer explains his fuel and speed for the voyage south. He might have been able to do this at a perpetual 60 revs after the 66-day submerged voyage, but in the original book he admits he was at the Equator by 4 July 1945. Therefore he could not possibly have done this voyage on 80 tons fuel.

(5) From all the evidence in "Ultramar Sur" and what Schäffer says in his 1950 book, it is a fair assumption that U-977 sank the Brazilian cruiser "Bahia" at the Equator on 4 July 1945. This was a bizarre accident, and no torpedo was fired. One has to read and read the evidence and always ask oneself the question "Why" until one suddenly realizes how this event must have happened ON THE BASIS OF THE DEPOSITIONS AND THE WRITTEN EVIDENCE. And one's next question is: Since they didn't hang Schäffer, who stood to gain from concealing the facts?

(6) Schäffer stated that U-977 was off Rio de Janeiro on 10 July 1945 and did not surrender for another 38 days. What he did in this time he does not reveal but we do suspect his purpose.

The conflict we have exists in that as regards U-977 (U-530 is another can of worms with the unexpected) the documents in the North do not coincide with the documents in the South plus Schäffer's original book which until now has remained unseen by Northern eyes.

All the contributors to this U-boat.net article stand on one or other side of the fence as to which version they believe. The problem here is that in accepting the South version, a person is forced to believe that the naval history provided by the Allies and its historians is not reliable.

One last point. It was asked earlier where the crews of the "phantom U-boats" could have disappeared to. Those who know Argentina and Chile, and understand the politics of the time, have no problem in seeing how 100 German U-boat men can have been assimilated into local society with false identities.

About 80 U-boat men at least appear to have got away from Argentina. The Allies were in no hurry to send home the crew of the "Admiral Graf Spee", 850 of whom were prisoners of war in Argentina and Uruguay, the majority of whom did not want to be repatriated. Finally the refrigerator ship "Highland Monarch" arrived in 1946, and to great lamentations the "Graf Spee crew" went aboard. The 850 identity documents, such as they were, were handed to the British in one bag and no identity checks were possible. The British naval attaché attending remarked that the whole thing was "a complete shambles" and he suspected that "a number of substitutions might have occurred."

When the "Highland Monarch" reached Boston, 80 "Graf Spee" men who had been identified as "U-boat men" were weeded out for interrogation. No doubt a diligent researcher in the United States and at the PRO can come up with the full story, particularly where the 80 U-boat men came from, since they were neither from U-977 nor U-530, the only submarines officially to reach Argentina.

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Subject Written By Posted
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Re: Ultramar Sur Paul 11/01/2007 07:54PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Davenz 11/02/2007 04:36AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 11/02/2007 06:27PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Davenz 11/02/2007 09:25PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Carlos De Napoli 11/07/2007 12:56PM
Re: Ultramar Sur Paul Lawton 11/07/2007 03:16PM
Re: Ultramar Sur Carlos De Napoli 11/08/2007 02:30AM
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Ultramar Sur "Cat among the Penguins"! Terry Andrews 11/08/2007 11:44PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/09/2007 03:22AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Terry Andrews 11/09/2007 05:55AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order DanOdenweller 11/09/2007 02:15PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/09/2007 03:10PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Napoli 11/10/2007 07:40PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Bruce Dennis 11/11/2007 12:59AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Nápoli 11/11/2007 07:12PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/11/2007 08:28PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Nápoli 11/11/2007 09:27PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order paul 11/12/2007 03:36AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Nápoli 11/12/2007 03:01PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Heinrich 12/09/2007 09:20PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Bruce Dennis 11/11/2007 09:37PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order ROBERT M. 12/10/2007 04:30PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Ken Dunn 11/09/2007 03:17PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order ROBERT M. 11/09/2007 08:34AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos Mey 11/29/2007 03:00PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/29/2007 04:09PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Marco Martinetti 11/29/2007 04:32PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order paul tjader 11/29/2007 05:29PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order geoffreybrooks 12/20/2007 08:56PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 12/21/2007 01:38AM
Re: Ultramar Sur "Cat among the Penguins"! rick 12/21/2007 03:39AM
Re: Ultramar Sur "Cat among the Penguins"! Paul 12/21/2007 04:41AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/10/2007 06:52PM
Re: Ubersee Sud ROBERT M. 12/11/2007 07:24AM
Re: Overseas South Pedro 12/11/2007 01:07PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/11/2007 05:39PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Pedro 12/12/2007 01:10PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/20/2007 11:59PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/21/2007 01:41AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/21/2007 09:09PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/22/2007 02:58AM
Re: Ubersee Sud ROBERT M. 12/22/2007 03:44AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 12/22/2007 05:19AM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/22/2007 02:19PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/22/2007 03:35PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Pedro 12/22/2007 09:21PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 05:16PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Pedro 12/23/2007 08:37PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 02:22AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/22/2007 04:56PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 04:47PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/23/2007 07:23PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 09:32PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Ken Dunn 12/23/2007 07:59PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 09:39PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 02:10AM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía DanOdenweller 12/24/2007 03:26AM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía Paul 12/24/2007 03:03PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 04:42PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 06:46PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía ROBERT M. 12/24/2007 10:12PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/24/2007 09:50AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 03:00PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 12/25/2007 04:48AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/25/2007 02:49PM
Re: Ubersee Sud paul 12/26/2007 02:03PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/27/2007 07:32PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/28/2007 01:08AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 12/28/2007 02:23AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/28/2007 01:54PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/28/2007 03:14AM
"Swinging the lantern" MPC 12/28/2007 11:09AM
Re: Rumours or Half Truths? Terry Andrews 12/28/2007 05:00PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - This thread has been closed. Forum Moderator 12/28/2007 05:27PM


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