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Re: Ubersee Sud
Posted by: geoffreybrooks ()
Date: December 22, 2007 03:35PM

The clamour for "proof" and particularly "facts" which one observes from the various replies I have received is actually a clamour for "palatable facts". Even if one could produce the hull of a U-boat in Chilean or Argentine waters with a full history of its crew and how it got there, that would not be enough to satisfy anybody. I hope to show that that is the mentality by the following exercise. When confronted with the unarguable, nobody will have the grace to admit he could have been mistaken, as we shall see.

I assume that everybody has read his copy of "Ultramar Sur", but for those who have not I will provide the necessary references so that nobody will think I am making things up.

Here is my theory of how the "Bahia" was sunk by U-977, and I invite comments.

At 0900 hrs on the morning of 4 July 1945 on the Equator at 30ºW, the Brazilian light cruiser "Bahia" came to a stop in the water to let down a float for AA practice.

This procedure took about ten minutes, but no sooner was the "Bahia" under way at slow ahead than there occurred a tremendous explosion on the poop deck which blew off the stern, and the cruiser sank within a few minutes.

Of her crew of 360, there were 36 survivors, these being 35 ratings and an engineer sub-lieutenant. Amongst the dead were four US Navy telegraphists who shared a lifeboat with some of the survivors but perished before being found. The US Navy denies the existence of these four men.

These facts are unchallenged,and are recited at length in "A Tragedia do Bahía" by Vice-Admiral Saldanha da Gama in the official Historia Naval Brasileira, Vol V, Book II, Servicio de Documentaçao Geral da Marinha, Rio de Janeiro, 1985, page 412 (quoted in "Ultramar Sur at page 352).

In his original book and at his interrogation by the Argentine Navy, Schäffer stated that on the morning of 4 July 1945 he was on the Equator and within a few miles of the place where the cruiser "Bahía" was sunk. He was travelling surfaced and wearing the disguise of a fishing vessel. The flak guns abaft the conning tower were manned and Schäffer stated that he "intended to defend himself with them should he be fired upon, he would not allow his boat and crew to be captured."

Ten survivors of the "Bahía" had been on deck starboard side at the time of the tragedy. These survivors all stated that after the ship stopped to let down the float, at 0910 hrs just as the cruiser got under way, the commander, who had been observing a strange fishing vessel about two miles off on the starboard quarter, gave the No 7 20-mm Oerlikon the order to fire a burst ahead of the strange vessel, which the officers now believed to be a disguised submarine, whose crew were hurriedly entering the vessel. A burst of four of five rounds was fired. The submarine was seen to return fire immediately from a gun immediately abaft the conning tower at which there was a tremendous explosion on the poop and the cruiser began to sink.

In my opinion Schäffer fired a few rounds from the flak to gain time for his crew to get inboard and submerge. A round impacted the depth charges stacked on the poop deck and blew up the cruiser, the first cruiser in history ever to be sunk by a flak gun. You will all know the official verdict from reading your copies of "Ultramar Sur" but if not I will go over it once I have harvested a few replies.

I invite wise but not uninformed criticism of my theory and we shall then see where it leads us.

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Subject Written By Posted
Ubersee Sud Marco Martinetti 10/31/2007 07:44PM
Re: Ultramar Sur Paul 11/01/2007 07:54PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Davenz 11/02/2007 04:36AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 11/02/2007 06:27PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Davenz 11/02/2007 09:25PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Carlos De Napoli 11/07/2007 12:56PM
Re: Ultramar Sur Paul Lawton 11/07/2007 03:16PM
Re: Ultramar Sur Carlos De Napoli 11/08/2007 02:30AM
Ultramar Sur rick 12/21/2007 12:55AM
Ultramar Sur "Cat among the Penguins"! Terry Andrews 11/08/2007 11:44PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/09/2007 03:22AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Terry Andrews 11/09/2007 05:55AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order DanOdenweller 11/09/2007 02:15PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/09/2007 03:10PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Napoli 11/10/2007 07:40PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Bruce Dennis 11/11/2007 12:59AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Nápoli 11/11/2007 07:12PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/11/2007 08:28PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Nápoli 11/11/2007 09:27PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order paul 11/12/2007 03:36AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos De Nápoli 11/12/2007 03:01PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Heinrich 12/09/2007 09:20PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Bruce Dennis 11/11/2007 09:37PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order ROBERT M. 12/10/2007 04:30PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Ken Dunn 11/09/2007 03:17PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order ROBERT M. 11/09/2007 08:34AM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Carlos Mey 11/29/2007 03:00PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 11/29/2007 04:09PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Marco Martinetti 11/29/2007 04:32PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order paul tjader 11/29/2007 05:29PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order geoffreybrooks 12/20/2007 08:56PM
Re: Ultramar Sur - Bildeberg & the New World Order Paul 12/21/2007 01:38AM
Re: Ultramar Sur "Cat among the Penguins"! rick 12/21/2007 03:39AM
Re: Ultramar Sur "Cat among the Penguins"! Paul 12/21/2007 04:41AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/10/2007 06:52PM
Re: Ubersee Sud ROBERT M. 12/11/2007 07:24AM
Re: Overseas South Pedro 12/11/2007 01:07PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/11/2007 05:39PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Pedro 12/12/2007 01:10PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/20/2007 11:59PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/21/2007 01:41AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/21/2007 09:09PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/22/2007 02:58AM
Re: Ubersee Sud ROBERT M. 12/22/2007 03:44AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 12/22/2007 05:19AM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/22/2007 02:19PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/22/2007 03:35PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Pedro 12/22/2007 09:21PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 05:16PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Pedro 12/23/2007 08:37PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 02:22AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/22/2007 04:56PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 04:47PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/23/2007 07:23PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 09:32PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Ken Dunn 12/23/2007 07:59PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/23/2007 09:39PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 02:10AM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía DanOdenweller 12/24/2007 03:26AM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía Paul 12/24/2007 03:03PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 04:42PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 06:46PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - Sinking of the Cruiser Bahía ROBERT M. 12/24/2007 10:12PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Bruce Dennis 12/24/2007 09:50AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/24/2007 03:00PM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 12/25/2007 04:48AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/25/2007 02:49PM
Re: Ubersee Sud paul 12/26/2007 02:03PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/27/2007 07:32PM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/28/2007 01:08AM
Re: Ubersee Sud Paul 12/28/2007 02:23AM
Re: Ubersee Sud geoffreybrooks 12/28/2007 01:54PM
Re: Ubersee Sud DanOdenweller 12/28/2007 03:14AM
"Swinging the lantern" MPC 12/28/2007 11:09AM
Re: Rumours or Half Truths? Terry Andrews 12/28/2007 05:00PM
Re: Ubersee Sud - This thread has been closed. Forum Moderator 12/28/2007 05:27PM


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